Okay, here they are
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Okay, here they are
Had to read through the whole thread to see that you pulled the transmission, but not the bellhousing - I was wondering how you didn't see the clutch pack damage the last (recent) time you were in there.
What brand of clutch was that? The pictures are awfully small, but that looks "lightweight" compared to the South Bend clutch I bought...
Like you, this got shoved to the back burner as I had to take care of other issues. But I'm headed home today to pull the bellhousing and rest of the parts and then I can start reinstalling things.
Sorry I have not been around -- been in and out of Hosp for two weeks now doing a million tests to try and save my leg. Looks like they got it figured out now -- I hope.
Most of the successfull change overs from DMF to SMF have been installing the dampner. On rare occassions (once that I know of) the clutch still came apart even with the dampner. I didn't install the clutch so don't know if it was installed correctly. NOTE: make dam sure you torque the pressure plate in an X pattern and in at least two stages. I have seen too many pressure plates that are loose on one side -- obvious indicator is that the pressure plate is blue on one side only.
I get approx. 65 to 70 thousand miles out of a clutch @ DMF.
Thanks for the tip on the Kevlar bushing I will order a couple and change it out with the new motor as soon as I am able to work on it.
Al
I'll check it out and find out what brand it is. It does seem rather small though eh? This is only and 11" clutch disc. I seem to remember something about the Dodge NV4500 running something like a 13" disc?
Al,
So you feel that the lack of the dampner on a SMF conversion will lead to damage? Crap... Another $500 out of pocket... Seems like the dampner is dealer only...
6.5DD, I'll get some pictures up of the clutch assembly that I picked up from South Bend.
All 3 of my trucks with factory NV4500s came with 12" clutches, 2 are 6.5s and one has a factory 5.7L.
Not sure why you would have an 11" disc.
Edit after Turbo Al's post below: Both my 6.5s have single mass flywheels, not sure it matters, just stating for reference.
I honestly don't know why the dampner is needed you would think the 16 springs on the assembly would make up for it but, yes if it was me I would go with the dampner. I have never had a solid flywheel -- two DMF -- so I have no direct exp working on a SMF but info from other DP members and a local trans shop tell me it is needed. I will never change mine over to SMF because I have had no problems at all with them in 200,000 miles. I personally think the SMF system is flawed with the clutch being the weak link.
The diameter of a DM clutch is also 12 inches and they have no springs in them, so I am not sure what application the 11 inch one is for.
Al
This is kind of funny. I would like to know for next time, which is better? The reason I went with the SMF was that I was told that it was the stronger more durable one. But obviously there is some strong feeling otherwise. Whaddya say?
Well it really depends on HOW you look at it. The DMF has six huge spings and big rubber snubbers and two piece flywheel to look after the vibrations, the DMF clutch has no springs on it what so ever. Also no dampner in the trans assembly.
The SMF has a clutch that has something like 12 or 16 (you would know) spings in it and like I said I think it is the weak link & depending on line of thought and a damper in trans assembly.
I have not had any trouble with the DMF at all (I have two one GM and one aftermarket) I rotate them every time I change the clutch (machine the surface on the one that is out)
I do go through a few more clutches than most because I do a lot of 4x4 ing some pretty long tows and have 3:43 gears which adds a bit more load on the clutch when I start it moving in 2nd gear -- never use first because it is extreamely low geared (1993) I get about 65 to 70 thou per clutch.
I have never had a SMF and don't intend to change over.
I do most of my own work and for a fact changing out the clutch is NOT a real easy job (trans weighs 200 lbs dry) but I have a system now that makes it as easy as possible.
I think if you add up all the parts the two different systems both come out to about the same price.
Al
The last clutch I replaced on my 6.5 only had the normal 5-6 springs like the older GM clutches. I have used it for 15-20K so far with no trouble, alot of the time with my D5 cat behind it.
I picked it up at the local parts store and could give you the PN tomorrow or Sunday (I am out of town at the moment)
Not sure it is the proper one for the application, but I am friends with the owner, and he knew what it was going in and what it would be doing.
I came into this a little late but the pivot ball wear issue got me a few years ago as well. I was (and still am) carrying a spare master and slave cyl under the seat just in case. They are "self bleeding"....that is after you slowly pump the pedal about a hundred times! After 200k and two clutches I still have a DMF, but it does rattle a little when I am backing up a heavy trailer. I just tap the throttle and it quiets down. It will bite me one of these days. JEFF
vr1967 that setup actually makes a LOT more sense to me than the recomended setup. Do you notice any more vibrations that the original setup?
Jeffscarstrucks, the only time my engine trans rattles is when the fuel filter is getting plugged up but I don't back up heavy trailers too often. Thanks for the "self bleeding" tip I will remember that next time I am alone.
Al
The SMF setup I have definitely isn't 11"... ;)
The clutch plate is 12" and has ten springs in it. The flywheel is 14". Here is the picture of what I have.
Like 6.5DD, I went to the SMF because it seemed that everyone was saying that it was an improvement over the DMF. Also, everything I've ever worked on has the springs in the clutch - Ford Mustang, Toyota truck, Saab 900, Peterbilt - so the DMF with the springs was a bit funky to me when I first saw it...
Also, the Dodge uses a SMF in front of the NV4500...
I guess YMMV, but it just seemed like the logical course of action to get rid of the DMF...
I am pretty sure that the brand I installed was DynaPak. I could be wrong, it probably is a 12".
What did you pay for the clutch pack? Including the flywheel?
I am hoping that I just got a defective clutch plate. :mad:
Now I know that I am not alone. I will be getting a basically new clutch setup in a week so it will be back together soon!
From South Bend Clutch MU1931TZ - which includes the flywheel, pressure plate, heavy duty kevlar clutch, kevlar pilot bushing, TO bearing, and alignment tool.
Total was $692.58 shipped to my door.
What about using a MityVac for the bleeding? At least on the older style NV4500's with the external slave, I'd think this would work out real nice. Not sure about the newer version with internal slave...Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffscarstrucks
Andy
I've never had much luck with the MityVac... I've been using a Motive Products Power Bleeder but didn't have the adapter I needed to use it on the clutch master.
I ended up jacking up the front of the truck so that the bleed valve was elevated and then did the two-person bleed with my girlfriend. That worked very quickly.
I also use the Mity-vac for brakes but the self bleed method was actually right from the GM shop. On the rattle, I always figured that it was the inner section of the flywheel somehow rattling between the springs. It has done it for some time now and the last time I had it apart there was no odd wear so back in it went. I always figured that it had to do with the reverse gear ratio and a higher load being applied to the clutch itself as compared to starting out in low. Jeff
P.S. It is nice to come back to this forum where people actually think and converse about machines in a positive and knowledgable manner. I am working on a little 742 skid steer that I bought the other day and the first tool I used on it was a plasma cutter. Some people should not be allowed to use a metal butter kife, let alone tools....Thanks again, JEFF
Hmmm... Do you think that the pivot ball may have been the issue? :D
http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/t...3&d=1211914876
Old one is on the left (if that wasn't obvious) and you can see the cracked seat in the fork behind the old and new one.
Curiously, as 6.5DD had mentioned with his situation, there is no sign of the seat and spring shown in the manual that are supposed to be on the threaded end of the pivot ball - and the pivot ball I got from the dealer did not come with them so I have to make another trip back there...
Finally, here is a picture of the zerk just below where the pivot ball screws into the bellhousing. I have to admit that I looked for it and did not see it before I had disassembled everything. Obviously the previous owner did not know about it either... In the photo above, you can see the hole towards the bottom of the pivot ball where the grease travels inside of the pivot ball to lubricate the ball at the fork. I'd assume that you would not want to pump gobs of grease into this and have it end up on the clutch itself...
http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/t...4&d=1211914876
I have to say they stop working long before the get that bad so you must have a left leg as strong as an elephants!!
I honestly can't remember a spring in there BUT there are two different setup one for light duty and one for Heavy duty --- they don"t interchange.
Great Pictures
Al
That's the funny thing - it seemed to work fine right up until it stopped working completely. At first, I thought I had blown the hydraulic line - which is what happened last summer. But then there wasn't the puddle of fluid like had happened that time...
Of course, since I bought this used and didn't know anything else, once I have this all fixed I'm going to probably think that it shifts smoother than melted butter! :D
And I should say "retainer spring" - the manual just says "spring." The pivot ball stud fits through the clutch fork and then a plastic seat and a spring clip fit on the stud to hold the fork in place.
Don't over grease it. I put 1 pump from the grease gun every time I changed the oil filter. The owner's manual gives some ounce amount, but who measures? ;)
Yes sping clip makes a lot more sense and It would be something I would put in without remembering it. I was 99% certain I didn't put in any kind of a spring in LOL, but felt like taking it apart (got lots of free time lol) to make sure ( :
Al
Ya, the fork was cracked on the truck and the stud was worn right down like that too. The retainer had popped off inside as well. GM part only it would seem. Got the clutch and am putting it back together today hopefully.
TRBANKII: Thanks for the picture. Armed with a scraper I attacked the bellhousing and discovered the fitting under a crusty layer of oil and dirt. :)
Clutch pack/housing is bolted up. Had to go to the dealer to get a missing housing stud, ($4!!!), but should have the rest of the tranny in within a few more hours. And then my beast will live again, finally. Just in time to drink up some of that $1.45/liter diesel. :mad:
Thanks to all, the Evil Diesel lives again. Everything went in properly and the truck was started with a quick prayer and a minute later I was rollin' down the road.
Good to hear!
Other things in life keep cropping up, but I really have to get mine back together this week...
I won't go into the soap opera drama that has been keeping me from finishing this blasted project up... Suffice it to say that I'm still working on it...
Thought I was making headway over the weekend, but I cannot get the clutch to disengage far enough to be able to shift smoothly. I bled everything out and sticking a pick into the hole at the back of the bellhousing where the slave cylinder is located, I can see that the slave is moving the release fork about 5/8" to 3/4" - no idea if it should be more than that or not.
Pulled the transmission back off but so far still have the bellhousing on there. It is obviously not pressing against the fingers hard enough to disengage properly.
Just to confirm - this is how the release bearing goes on the fork (see photo)? I used the old fork and bearing as an example.
And there isn't a different fork that needs to be used when converting to the SMF from the DMF? When they went to the SMF in the '97s they also went to the internal slave "ring" setup, so I'm guessing you use the same fork you would use with the DMF?
What shape is the socket in the fork where the ball rides? And what shapee is the pivot ball in? I had rouble there once, new forlk and pivot ball fixed it. Mine is still DMF.
That picture is the old fork and bearing for reference since the new stuff is all installed at the moment. Brand new fork, bearing, pivot ball, and retainer.
Check post #59 for my pictures of what shape the old stuff was in... :eek:
Is clutch pedal hard or easy to push
If pedal is harder than normal the fork, ball or flywheel may not be right
When hand pressure is applied to fork and throw out bearing is touching clutch fingers, if you were to draw a imaginary line from the throwout brg to fork contact point, the fork to ball stud contact point and the fork to slave cylinder contact point, the slave cylinder contact point should be forward of the ball contact point by approx 1/2" (slightly more than 1/2 of slave cylinder travel), if the line is parallel or to the rear it will cause the fork to bind and not have enough throw out brg movement, bin there had this happen
I.ve seen this happen when the flywheel was machined to much
If possible bolt old clutch and flywheel together and compare measurement from crank mounting surface to fingers and compare to new assembly
Hope I explained this so you can tell what I am talking about
I'll check tomorrow if you need any more clarification
Ron
Ps yes that is the proper installation of the throwout brg to the fork
Easy. Currently, the transmission is back out but I have the bellhousing and clutch all installed. I can look down through the hole in the floor as I apply the clutch and it seems that the fork is not pushing the throwout bearing in far enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhsub
Brand new slave, fork, pivot ball, throwout bearing, clutch, and flywheel. I'm throwing a new master cylinder in today as it is the only part of the equation that is original at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhsub
Did that measurement last night trying to figure out if the old DMF to new SMF setups were different and required a different fork or something. They match exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhsub
Headed out there now to do the master cylinder. Other than that, I'm at a loss.Quote:
Originally Posted by rhsub
Ok, replaced the master cylinder, bled it, and that seems to have solved the problem.
Should have done that from the start considering that 6.5DD also had that problem - not to mention that things like that should be replaced as systems (master, hydraulic line, slave) rather than components... If one part is going bad, likely that the other parts are worn too.
Now to get the rest of it back together and get the beast back on the road!
Just wanted to thank everyone who posted here and offered help and suggestions. The beast is back together and under its own power once again.
Couldn't have done it without all you folk! ;)
ill start with i realize this is a 4 year old thread.
any new updates? it seems some of you were having similar failures as me, and i was curious if your failures have continued, or resolved?
i have a 90 crewcab 4x4 with a 6.2 that had a th400 and i put a nv4500 from a 93 in it. i have had the clutch fail 4 times now in the last few years, every time i tear out the springs and the center hub comes loose, and the clutch will no longer disengage.
another pic of the destroyed clutch
and another
another one
then there is this pile of springs
and the damage it did to the flywheel