Oil Analysis

Maverick
I sent your oil analysis sheet off to Dave at Performance Oil Technology, will have a response manana...bill ;)

Maverick,

I had my 5w30 amsoil tested at about 12000 miles.

viscosity at 100 C was 11.8 previous testing of the same oil was 11.6.

soot has been less than 1% on all test.
Oxidation was 7.8
%nox was 7.1
TBN was 12.3

I think I added 2 quarts makeup oil over the 12000 miles to replace what I drained out and from the filter changes.

No one added some other oil that you don't know about did they? You didn't add a quart of gear lube by mistake???

I haven't had any problems with the amsoil.

Your viscosity sounds way high. testing on 15w 40 showed a viscosity of 13.8, so if you are showing 18.7 I don't know what that would equate to. Did the oil look thick? Maybe this is related to your head gasket problem.

I remember some posts some time ago about the 5w30 turning to sludge if antifreeze got in it. Your test was negative, but it seems as if I have read some post about not being able to detect the antifreeze. Maybe someone else can add to this.

Definitly sounds as if you have a problem. I don't think the amsoil would get that thick unless something was causing it. Another oil might be worse.

Your soot seems a little high compared to all my test. Sorry this is all I can offer. Good luck!

They are telling you that your viscosity is wrong because 5w-30 is too light of an oil to start with. The lower number (5w) is not that important, but you need a 40 weight oil to protect your engine in high heat.

Use a 15w-40 conventional oil or a 5w-40 synthetic. Be careful that the synthetic you choose is a real synthetic and not one of the newer cheaters (Rotella comes to mind).

My next fill (if I ever find the durn oil) will be 5w40 Delvac 1. I will then run it for a long term analysis.

I think that the technical expertise provided by George at AV lube is well worth the expense of the sampling. If you want TRUE results, get a ferrography done. While the cost is about $90, it shows what is REALLY in the oil, and not just the "fines"

I believe my current recommendation for Amsoil users would be to use the 15w40 Diesel/marine, but until I run a sample with a 40w oil to compare, I cannot say there is a difference, only go by what I am told.

Kennedy,

From Mobil's Delvac 1 FAQ:

22. WHERE CAN I BUY DELVAC 1?

Delvac 1 is available through our nationwide network of Mobil distributors in gallon jugs and 55-gallon drums.

We are gaining more retail distribution at truckstops and truck dealers every day -- and as you ask for the product, the truckstops will carry it.

Contact the Mobil Customer Response Center at 1-800-662-4525 for information on your nearest distributor.

I went on line at www.mobil.com, selected Mobil Delvac 1 and asked for a list of dealers in my zip code. The web site came back with 4 suppliers.
One was about 5 miles away and I zipped up there on my lunch hour. Minimum sale is 1 case of 4 gallons about $88 bucks. I probably didn't get the best price as didn't use a company name or have an account. Next time!!

Anyway, changed from the Delvac 1300S with 5K on it and dropped in 11 qts. (yes mine seems to take 11 qts with the filter change) of the Synthetic Mobil Delvac 1 to get the oil level to the very top if the in range notch. 10 qts left the oil level down 2 notches still in range, but not full in my mind, so added another qt. Same thing happened last time. Full oil means cooler engine.

Drove to Reno for Hot August Nights about 250 miles and while outside of the truck getting a coke, I still hear the damn "TICK". I was hoping the Delvac 1 would solve that problem. 20K on the truck now, but it's a Timex truck, "takes a lickin and keeps on ticking" LOL

Anyway, will run this oil 7500 miles and change it and send it in to AVLube for analysis and see what's different about it other than $22 per gallon.

I could not stand to let my truck go 12K or 15K without an oil change, you guys who do that to save a few bucks are risking bigger bucks in repair cost, but it all depends on if you are keeping the truck or trading it in every few years doesn't it.

7500 is the max I am going to go between oil changes with the synthetic, 5K on Dino. I mean what the hell is the point,. Just so you can say you went 15K and the analysis is bad or good?????

We just got one of our diesel generators back from a rental customer with 2500 hours on it. They never changed the damn oil and filters. The valve train and rocker arms clogged up and no oil was able to circulate, burned up the whole valve train and head overheated. $3600 repair job they have to pay due to negligence and failure to perform maintenance. Sad part is it was under warranty, but rejected due no maintenance performed.

Anyway, that's apples and oranges and no comparison to our trucks except that sometimes trying to save a few dollars can end up costing you a lot more.

Happy Motoring

Maverick,

If I lived in Alaska, I would certainly use the 5w30. A 30 weight oil probably covers the temperature range you operate in most of the time. I don't think you have a problem with the amsoil. Having read your other post and problems, I would think the two things are related-- I guess this is in the same truck? My understanding is that your oil has thickend up for some reason. Its not to thin. The lab is not going too tell you that you are using too thin of an oil. They will only tell you how the oil compares to what you told them it was. A multiviscosity oil actually changes with temperature. So they test it at 100 degrees c which would be testing the 30 weight rating and not the 5 weight. There may be something in the oil not covered by the test. Maybe you should call the lab and see what they say.

Ken

Maverick

Something is really wrong here. The % of OXD or soot level is not that high for the viscocity to be a 50 weight.

But if you look at the fuel its 1% now that IMHO is high and I would be looking for and injector leak or something.

The copper level has me wondering as well. I really feel you have something series going on here. Do you still have the old oil you drained out? If so hang on to it.

As for the 30 weight not being heavy enough thats not true. I have a customer with a Duramax that pulls RV's out of northern Indiana and has over 50K miles on his 5W-30 and looks great. His soot level never got to 2% till 45K miles and % of fuel is less than 1%, and % of OXD was only 14.4. All other wear metals are well with in limits.

Didn't you have a problem with anti freeze lose a while back?

Greg

I'd have liked to see a ferrography on that oil. Sounds awfully heavy.

The copper sounds like wrist pins. Let's hope not...

I had a fair amount of oxidation/black oxides in mine. Will be interesting to see how the 40w compares...

From a lube engineer's perspective, one very important aspect of engine oil function in a diesel is to provide "cushioning" at bearing interface. As the name diesel implies, during the power stroke, diesel fuel literally explodes, producing a violent reaction. As opposed to gasoline engines where fuel "burns" yielding a much softer power stroke. The explosive energy from diesel fuel is in turn relayed through the piston, connecting rod bearings and crankshaft main bearings. At this moment the oil film is the cushioning agent, the component that makes all this work smoothly. If oil film fails, we have bearing face rubbing bearing face and accelrated wear. There just isn't a substitute for viscosity and film strength in a diesel for this job.
20 years ago the majority of Cummins and CAT diesel engines used straight weight 30W. When 15W-40 diesel oils were developed, engine and component life dramatically increased from 30% to 50%. Film thickness... Combined with cold weather oil flow combined to decrease the shock loading for bearings and provided longer life.
We are keeping metal away from metal with an oil film. The thickest, optimum viscosity oil film with the strongest film strength will provide the maximum distance between meta/metal and best cushioning... It is that simple.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Some of you touched this a little.
Can anyone tell me what looks out of line, not normal for this engine and oil.? I have no idea what 18.7 means as far as vis. What should 5w-30 be at at 100 degrees? Is the 18.7 being compared to the 30 in 5w-30? I thought the higher the number the thicker the oil. 50 weight is thicker than 30 weight. 18.7 would be really thin right? I don't know how to read these results. Just highlight what does't look right. Thanks.

Jeff, for reference- My test results see a copper level of about 7-9, an iron level of 5-6, a lead level of 4-5, and viscosity of 13.7-14.7. Fuel levels are always under 1%, water is always less than .1%, and soot is always less than .1%.

This is with 15w-40 Dino oil, at 4,000 mile intervals.

I think you've got something wrong... Those copper and iron levels scare me!!

Would Dexcool have this effect on the oil?? What about the dye used to do the leak check??

[ 08-16-2002: Message edited by: SoMnDMAX ]</p>

Thanks Matt.

Ok now what!? What do you oil guys suggest I do now beside a $90 test? Run it till something goes?

[ 08-16-2002: Message edited by: Maverick ]</p>

The first think I would do is switch to the right oil. Look at your owners manual and you will see the correct oil you should be using. If you have an '01 there are errors in the manual about oil usage that are corrected by a service bulletin... contact your dealer for a copy. Surely you don't beleive that salespeople on a message board know more than the manufacturer about the correct oil for the Duramax do you?

The second thing I would do is switch testing labs. Your test failed to give you the necessary information to make an intelligent decision. I use Blackstone and they explain everything for you. If your copper and iron were high they would give you the possible reasons.

If you posted all the info. from your test it's a pretty poor testing facility that doesn't give complete explainations. You are buying their service as a complete package... not just numbers.

[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: csimo ]</p>

Maverick,

Go to this site if you want to get an idea of what the 18.7 means. http://www.chevron.com/prodserv/NewO...y_motoroil.htm

I think some of you guys think that the viscosity is supposed to be the same number as the oil weight. This isn't the case. I think Greg is correct that the 18.7 would be the reading for a 50 weight oil. The chart at the above site would give you that information.

George, I'm no expert, but it sounds like you are tying thickness and film strength together. Maybe I am misreading your post. I don't believe that oil thickness and film strength are necessarily tied together. I believe water has a high film strength yet is very thin. I think you can have a thinner weight oil with a higher film strength than some other higher weight oils. Energy saving recommendations say to use 30 weight. There has to be a balance of all these factors together. Many of the modern engines with very small clearances will perform better and be better protected with a 30 weight than a 40 weight. The brand and design of the oil also plays a big part. Whats a guy to do??!~!! Just toooooo many choices!!

Maverick, I would keep your oil changed frequently until you discover what is causing it to degrade. You never did tell us the circumstances of your oil test. Was this the same oil you were running when you had the head gasket problem, or after that? or a different truck? How about previous oil test. One thing about the oil testing, is that it can show you a change over time. Did you do any previous test?

Here are some ranges from the back of my analysis
SAE ENG OIL MIN MAX
30 / 9.3 - 12.5
40 / 12.5 -16.3
50 / 16.3 -21.9
I know this dos't explain what they mean, but it shows where it should be

[ 08-17-2002: Message edited by: bbattrell ]</p>

csimo,
Give me a complete company name, address, phone #, and web address for this Blackstone. Thanks.

KenZ,
This was the same oil with the head problem. Never tested before this one.

Another question. Is it OK to dump this synthetic oil and put in say Rotella or Delvac again? I thought once you go synthetic you couldn't go back to regular oil. Could someone please clarify this. Thanks.

All the info on Blackstone can be found at:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/

You can switch from conventional to synthetic and back again with no problems. The claims that you can't go one way or another are just old wives tales.

I personally believe in synthetic oils, but I don't buy into the extended drain intervals claimed by some. I use Delvac 1 5w-40 full synthetic diesel oil and change it when the "change oil" light comes on. I send my sample to Blackstone and they usually tell me things are fine and I could have gone longer before my change, but then I would be violating the terms of the warranty.

Good luck!

[ 08-18-2002: Message edited by: csimo ]</p>

Maverick, sorry to hear about your engine problems. I hope all is well now. I want to comment about the Oil anylsis though. Blackstone has a solid reputation on the other forum, and what I like is the record they (and you) keep which helps spot developing problems early. They also reccomend fixes. The only downside is that they have to send a sample kit and all, which takes time, and time is money. Maybe a phone call would speed up the process. Good Luck.

Maverick
The lab you are using gives as much detail as Blackstone. I have sent a sample of the same oil to each and results were the same. You can change back to dino if you want but why? As for extended drains it has been done for years. We are not in the stone age any longer as some here would like to make you think. Oil technology has advanced greatly in the last several years.

Greg

Extended drain? Heck, just use SynLube once and you're done. They claim no oil changes for 10 years or 150,000 miles (you'd probably never make it that far using SynLube).

There are a couple out there that claim you NEVER have to change your oil again. Good for the life of the car (which won't be too long).

There's one brand saying they can go 410,000 miles before needing an oil change.

Sure... believe all the black magic! Their oil won't get dirty.

Use common sense folks... oil is supposed to get dirty and if it doesn't its not a good oil to start with (the ability of an oil to hold dirt in suspension is a quality of good oil). There are very few times we change oil because the oil itself is worn out, but rather we're trying to flush the dirt out with the oil.

It seems we have people on the diesel forum living in the year 2002 and others living in the year 1962 and others that are not sure what year it is, LOL!!...very interesting wouldn't you say

I live in 2002, but 1962 was a better year... and better times in my opinion.

Yep, I've been around a long time. I've worked for two of the big three (GM and Chrysler) for many years (I am a graduate of the GM Institute and started working for GM when I was 18. I'm now retired). I've worked along side some of the best engineers in the world. I've worked with people such as as Bob Eaton, Ed Cole, and Lee Iacocca. I've asked many questions about all the oil wizardry to many of the best. They ALL say the same things.

When these informercials claim you can run an engine for hundreds of miles in the desert without any oil I don't believe them. Do you?

When the manufacturer sets a maintenance schedule for a vehicle I believe them. Do you? They have little or nothing to gain off the maintenance, but more research has gone into that schedule than all these snake oil companies have done since their existance.

When companies claim their oil is better due to one specific test (usually the four ball test which has absolutely nothing to do with engine longevity) I don't believe them.

When companies claim to be "first in synthetics" I don't believe them. Synthetic oil has been around before their guy was born. Friedel & Crafts invented synthetic base stocks in 1877, and Germany had several synthetic oil factories in WWII (not to mention synthetic gasoline and synthetic rubber). Members of my family bombed them.

Responsible companies that make excellent products (Exxon Mobil comes to mind with Delvac 1, but they're not alone) tell you that you can extend drain intervals but they recommend the manufacturer's service intervals. Good advice.

Some companies tell you it's OK to forget about oil changes. They'll pay the bill if it breaks. Check their record with the BBB or their state attorney general and you'll find the truth. Don't bet on their warranty or GM's if you don't follow the maintenance schedule.

All I'm saying is that it's easy to get caught up in this advertising hype. There have been excellent studies done on motor oils. The legitimate studies invariably show that a good quality oil changed per the manufacturer's maintenance schedule is the right way to go.

Use common sense! Here's a summary of a good truly independent 4,000,000 mile motor oil test. It's kind of dated today, but it does show what I'm talking about.

http://www.xs11.com/stories/croil96.shtml

csimo
On this forum as well as others you seem to have and ax to grind with a certain oil company. Sure synthetics have been around for a long long time. But who was first to make it for automotive use? It was not the Germans. GeorgeM will even tell you that the oil company you don't like as very good oil, the only thing here will disagree with is in which wait to use.
Greg

Greg,

Sorry but the Germans used thousands of barrels of synthetic motor oil in WWII. Nearly all vehicles on the eastern front had to use it to keep running. Germany had a large number of synthetic lubricants designed out the their lack of natural oil, and the requirement to have mechanical functions at very low temps.

The only ACTUAL claim AMSOIL should make regarding their "First in Synthetics" claim is that Amsoil was the first company to market a synthetic motor oil in the USA that met API standards. They have reduced this very specific "first" down to their slogan "First in Synthetics". They were not the "first" to manufacturer or use synthetic motor oil, and they are not the "first" in synthetic motor oil sales. A very misleading slogan to say the least.

I have said many times that Amsoil makes some good products, and some not so good products. Most are in the middle. The problem I have with Amsoil is the brainwashing they do to people like you and others selling their product. They throw lots of documentation that appears to show that every single product they make is the best in the world. To the uninformed it looks impressive, but to the informed it looks like fraud. I don't think you or any of the others are bad people for buying into this, but I do think it's wrong to spread that to unsuspecting customers.

For one example let's take the famous four ball test that Amsoil hangs nearly 100% of it's credibilty on when it comes to motor oils. The four ball test is a wear indication of metal-to-metal contact components. An engine (other than a few parts in the valve train) contains no metal-to-metal components and is designed to run with a fine film of pressurized oil between metal components. The four ball test is not an appropriate test for real world engine components but WOULD be a good test for axles, etc. that are not pressurized and designed to run metal-to-metal. If you replaced the Amsoil motor oil in the test with the cheapest GL-5 gear lube you would suddenly think that the GL-5 is 10 times better than motor oil. They are designed for different purposes, and the four ball test is not a valid test for motor oils (but it is great for gear lubes). The independent tests show it's in the middle like most others.

I would probably use a few selected Amsoil products, but I just don't know what to believe from them. Nearly every think they claim is in a very grey area and the more you investigate the more you find that their claims are twisted and don't pertain to the purpose of the product. Yes other companies do some of the same things, but not to the extent perfected by Amsoil. I don't like that and feel that I should point it out so people can make an informed decision. The data is out there for people to look at and I hope they look at it from ALL sides.

Greg I'm sure that you really do believe that every product Amsoil makes is the best in the world. Logic and reason tells me otherwise. As long as there are people like you and I to debate such subjects there can be nothing but good come out of it. Informed consumers are the best consumers.

Then you have the 1,000,000 mile stock 1995 Chevy pickup with a 350 engine that ran on Pennzoil regular dino oil.

Pennzoil gave the guy a brand new truck so they could tear the still good running engine apart and analyze it.

I run synthetic ATF, synthetic Diff lube and use synthetic chassis grease.

For the engine I just run a good quality dino cause I like to change it and stay visually clean.

Hey Maverick,

I've heard of analyzres re-running samples as in there is likely enough for a "second opinion" if you can get them to release it.

I won't even bother saying who I'd recommend...

Maverick,

Hope your truck get's fixed, you need that rig to run without a worry!!! Good Luck to you! ;)

Anyway, JMHO here, no one take any offense please. My last truck was a 1987 GMC Sierra 2500 no frills 4x4. I ran her from 1995 when I got her used with 70K on the clock and I sold her 5 years later with 247K. I never used anything other than mobil oil in the truck 5W40 in the winter and 10w40 in the summer. Plain old DINO oil at 2500-3000 mile oil changes. If I plowed a hard snow storm I would change it out the next time at half the mileage.

The truck is still on the road and last time I spoke with Dave he had 313K on her, still going strong. Tranny is GM's T400. Same tranny.

I am sticking with DINO in the Dmax, however I will most likely go to Synthetic for the Diff's and the transfer case. Still on the fence with the Allison on synthetic.

This post may have been a little off topic.

I am going to send for an analysis on my next oil change to see what's up.

Good luck again Maverick!!!

GMC ;)

I guess I need to ask a newbie question here. So you get an oil analyis and it shows something wrong. Coolant in the oil I understand you need to address. But lets say it shows some sort of high metal reading. What good does this do you other than make you worry about something inside the engine getting ready to break into 50 little pieces?? Your not going to rip the engine apart looking for the source of high copper or whatever are you??? So why do this and worry???

First Diesel....hope you are not one of those guys who never goes to the doctor for a physical, because you don't want to hear something might be wrong LOL

The first oil change should show the highest numbers as all the waste and sand and crap from the casting and buildup are washed out. After that, subsiquent analysis should read normal. If they don't read normal it means there is something you need to keep an eye on (just like high blood pressure or high cholesterol). If subsiquent analysis (testing) continue to show no improvement or worse readings then further testing may be necessary. Unlike our bodies, these trucks come with a warranty and if you can document an issue, the dealer has to make it right.

Most major diesel operators (big rigs and heavy equipment operators) live and die by the maintenance schedule and oil analysis as the "early warning system" that something is going on and needs to be addressed. Our trucks are smaller, but the same principle applies. Periodic analysis (not necessarily every oil change, but some will do that)can be considered preventive care so that you can take care of a problem before it gets worse. Think of it like a clogged artery in your heart's pipeline, do you want to know about it while there is still time to do something about it or do you want to just fall down and die one day. When we die it's all over, but when our trucks breakdown, it's just expensive. So consider the oil analysis like a doctor's visit for a checkup once a year or more.

Enjoy that new truck and yes you will be doing new things that you never did before in your gasser. But that's what makes it fun, to learn new things and take better care of your investment.

Have a great and healthy day!

When gettinng oil analyzed what do you put it in, do you do when engine is warm, cold. Gonna get it done but dont know if I should ship it to h.o. penn or just drive up my sample myself. Thinking of using a tubberware container about the size of a shot glass or so, How much oil do they need for anlysis too? Just wannna make sure, takes a while to get 7,000 miles on a truck and I am interested in seeing how my K&N is doing with keeping dirt out. Do they check for dirt in oil or just do a chemical analysis?

thechevyhdman

Most analysis kits come with a bottle to return the oil in. Several even come with a return envelope to mail it in.

Check out Amsoil or Blackstone labs online. Buy the kit and they come with all you need. Not too pricey, either.

Be sure to get the sample when the oil is warmed up. A fumoto valve makes it very easy to get a sample. Let a little run out first and then get your sample.

thechevyhdman
I feel the Amsoil oil analysis kits is the best for the money. For $14 you get the kit which includes sample bottle and postage paid mailer to send it to the lab. You will then get the report back and it will include everything you need to know. It even includes soot and tbn which most other companies do not include unless you pay more. By the way the $14 includes the shipping the kit to you.

Take the sample after you get home some evening while it is still hot. As stated above if you have a Fumoto valve drain a few ozs. out first before you take the sample. If you use a clean container to catch the oil in you can put it back in the truck when your done.

Greg

Just to keep things balanced, another source of oil analysis kits ia www.avlube.com. The nice part of that kit is that you get me along with it! I get a back copy of the results so we can discuss them in detail. The lab is ISO 9000 and has no affiliation with an oil company.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

George,
What's the cost from Avlube?

Yes OAI is owned by Amsoil, but I feel they are as good as any other lab going. I have checked out other labs with the same oil sample and results were always the same. OAI is also a modern new lab that is ISO certified.
Greg

Well I want Cat to do it, they give responses back in the same day, and I want someone thats nuetral to this subject. The only reason Im having it done is to see how well the K&N is doing, Im pretty interested in the results. A friend of ours works for Cat, maybe you see him in the H.O Penn magazine Jeff Nevesky, he'll give me the straight up answers. When we took delivery of our 2001 Cat, we had problems after 500 miles so as protocol, they automatically checked the oil, seems that GMC put the wrong viscosity fluid in from the factory, ended up being alot of junk In the primary and secondary filter, rubber filings from the hoses when they were made. Ended up costing us 900 dollars and GM hasnt covered a dime yet. Thanks for your replys. Bill

"silicon level slightly high..Check air intake (air filter,etc) for dirt leak..."

Silicon PPM 25..Should be around 20..

It has been real dry around here and I had the K & N filter in it for awhile also..I have went back to the paper filter...

[ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: Paintdude ]</p>

Paintdude,

You did not mention your truck's mileage or mileage on the oil. If this is your first or second change, it may be normal. Others have posted that the silicon levels on the Dmax tend to be high the first few changes, and then normalize - likely due to contamination.

Kennedy (and others) have recommended two or three quick oil/filter changes with dino to flush out the contaminants, then start a 'normal' oil/filter change schedule.

Depending on your Dmax mileage, the K&N may or may not be suspect...

Good luck.