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First change at 1000 miles, oil and filter, then second change at 3000 miles..This was a sample from the second change..I will change it at 5000 or 6000 and check it again to see what the results are..
this truck just runs better and better.. [img]smile.gif[/img]
Well, I "captured" some oil in a clean bottle from my 30,010 change (6,950 on the oil)on August 18th and finally shipped it off to AVLube on Sept. 13th. Got my emailed results tonight: Wear->Iron-12, Lead-19, Copper-13, Aluminum-2. Contaminants-> Silicon-12, Boron-1, Sodium-6, Potassium-3. Soot-<0.1, Oxidation-11.0, Nitration-5.00. Glycol-0, Water-<0.1, Fuel-A (?) Report says wear and contaminants normal, continue normal PM and resample at normal interval. Good news as I'm on a 7,500 mile change routine and things look good. They did bust me on my additives, though: "Some additive metals differ from our baseline sample for this fluid which could indicate contamination with another oil, additive package change or depletion." Two indicated high, Calcium-3135 and Zinc-2051. I've been adding OptiLube for some time and this must be it. Great peace of mind for $19!
Why the additive? What does this additive do or add that a good oil doesn't . The few independent
tests that Iv'e ever seen . Not one additive made any diffrence on wear or sludge and varnish build
up. I don't care what you use ,your truck and money. I never heard of this one. Mostly wondering
what their speal is and special ingredient..
Well, deerhunter, I actually brought a bottle of it back from the 2001 Diesel Rendezvous and started using it in my 99 6.5TD Tahoe. They advertised here on TDP for a while. It's basically an oil additive that appears to be based in a 30 or 40 weight oil. The directed dosage is 1.5 ounces per quart initially and then 1 ounce per quart thereafter. I've been using it in the Dmax since day one. Looks like it adds Calcium and Zinc, huh? Those were the only two additives out of spec, Phosphorus scored normal at 1676, Magnesium at 16 and Molybdenum at 0. I thought that OptiLube seemed credible because they made no "miracle" claims or hype and were just sold and advertised as an oil additive and enhancer. I'm comfortable with that, and it looks to be complementing my Rotella-T. The anaylsis report states that my addpack doesn't match Rotella-T baseline (it's actually more in Calcium and Zinc) and only stated that there was "something else" there, not "something bad." Sounds like it's doing what it's supposed to do! My full analysis result is available (an Adobe *.pdf) in my Yahoo briefcase, the EXCEL SPREADS link in my signature.
Here it is its done.
Ac Delco Oil Filter Used
Last oil change 14329, K&N Cleaned
mileage 21853
mileage between oil change 7524-0
total hrs on vehicle 962.2
Oil Used Citgo Citguard 500 15w40
Meaurement in PPM
Copper 8
Iron 18
Chrome 1
Lead 0
Aluminum 1
Silicon 15
Molybendium 81
Sodium 4
Calcium 2353
Tin 0
Potassium 0
Magnesium 259
Zinc 943
Water Neg.
Fuel Neg.
Antifreeze Neg.
Soot 14% 100 % is Max
Oxidation 8% In percent of allowable
Nitration No response
Sulfur Products 6 In percent of allowable
Viscosity 13.1
Elevated Silicon Levels... Check Air Intake/Anti Foam additives in new oil.
More Samples Needed To Show Trend.
PS before anyone jumps me on High Silicon due to K&N use.. Dont forget I unknowingly used 3/4 of aeresol spray(Im used to the hand spray) Have another SOS test will be done next 7500 miles.
thechevyhdman
Other than silicon the numbers look good except for soot at 14%. I wonder what the real number is for 100%? Judging by some of the other numbers I would say that it is at 14% of some magical number, you should see what that number is. Normally if soot gets above 3% of the total they recommend changing oil. What lab did the analysis?
Greg
Greg.. Soot Indication of lugging over fueling air inlet restriction filter plugging or extended engine idling. Reported in terms of percent allowable 100% is the maximum normally allowable.
Caterpillars H.O Penn Lab did it for me for 13 dollars and they gave me one for free when I dropped off my sample. They told me that I shouldnt get my oil from the drain in the pan as it can sway and give false negative results.. I wasnt up for buying the pump to get it done through the dipstick
"Don't get the oil from the drain - use a hose through the dipstick" (?!) Excuse the puzzled look, ChevyHDman, but the drain and the dipstick tube are the same oil out of the pan. I think what they wanted to say was not to use the first rush out of the bottom of the pan where stuff could have collected. I opened up the fumoto and let a good quart or so run out, then I rinsed out the bottle a couple of times in the continuing full-flow run before grabbing the sample. I guess this could be a problem if you're not sampling at an oil change, though! :rolleyes:
Hey thechevyhdman;
I get my SOS analysis done by Finning (Cat Canada) and I seem to be getting some extra element analysis that you didn't. I compared my recent test to yours and in addition to what you listed I also get tests for Nickel, Silver, Boron and Barium. Go figure...
hmm... there is a cat SOS oil lab right near my work place [at the croman facility of toromont cat] i wonder if i could get them to do my analisis. i can get oil sample bottles from work for free i think.... [hmm, the wheels are begining to turn in my head... :D ]
Idle Chatter on most recently produce caterpillar engines theres a drain or a valve that you get oil from for sampling that is protected from dirt etc.This valve has a dust cover to prevent any false NEGATIVE results. What I mean or meant to say is that taking a sample from your oil pan drain can sway results and be innacurate as there is a possiblity of dirt from the outside of the pan making its way into the bottle you are using as a tester. This would show more DIRT in your oil then there really is.They dont want any possibility of inaccuracy.. They would rather you take oil from up the dipstick as there will be no dirt etc to give bad results.
Ahhhh, good precaution, chevyhdman. I sure have a lot of dirt and grit raining down on me and filling my nose, eyes and ears when I'm under my truck. :( I guess a "pinch" of that stuff in your oil sample bottle will sure drive up the silicon number! :eek:
I'm considering changing over to synthetic motor oil, probably Mobil Delvac 1. I've got over 16K miles now. I intend on running 7500 miles between changes with the synthetic and many suggest to do oil analysis if running that long between changes. Here are some of my questions:
1) where do I get the oil analysis kits.
2) which company does a good job of interpreting the technical results and gives you meaningful info.
3) should I have an analysis done of my dino oil when I switch in 2000 miles.
4) doesn't the soot build up with 7500 miles between changes.
5) what about the acids that gassers supposedly accumulate if the oil isn't changed every 3 months. Do diesels build up acids after 3 or 4 months?
Sure am glad this forum exits to get good info.
Thanks in advance.
Your best bet is the SOS Fluid Analysis from Finning or Cat USA. You can register your pending samples on-line and view the results as well. If something is really awry you get a phone call. One of the members, George Morrison, also owns a lab which does oil analysis so you have a choice. Cheers
Wayne, I've used a couple of analyzers and have liked them both:
Oil Analyzers http://www.oaitesting.com/
Who I am currently using. Cost $14 each and includes postage
Blackstone labs http://www.blackstone-labs.com/
Used them in the past, cost a little more but you have to provide postage.
7500 miles is a good interval to start, but as you get good results coming back you'll feel comfortable stretching the interval to 10k, maybe 20K like I do.
My soot has always been under 1% after 20,000 miles with Stage 2 Diesel Dynamics injectors.
Vaughn
As previously posted, http://www.avlube.com/ has oil analysis kits available on line. AVlube is also a rotating banner on top. It is where I work and will then follow through with analysis of the analysis as the numbers can be meaningless without explanation.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
lead 5
Copper 27
Iron 13
Chromium 0
Tin 4
Silicon 14
Aluminum 2
Soot .8
Oxidation .1
Nitration .0
ZDDP Depletion .0
Water .3
Fuel .0
Antifreeze .1
Archer Oil Dino 15w40 with just over 5000 miles on truck..Now I will run the 5000 change intervals..
This test was with Rotella-Dino 15w40...2500 miles on truck..2000 miles on oil, I did first change at 500 miles..
My silicon was 25 and I went from the K and N back to the Stock paper filter..
Copper was 53
Lead was 11
Soot was 2.6
Oxidation was 8.8
ZDDP depletion was 16.1
While I am strongly against the gauze type of air filter, the drop in silicon is likely attributed to removal of assembly dirt by oil filtration and just plain process of elimination when you dump the oil. It seems that unless you are in pretty gnarly conditions like pulling air through the fender, the silicon levels aren't through the roof with a K&N. NOW, that doesn't mean that the big stuff isn't there as the spectro analysis doesn't pick up on this stuff. It also could be that since the Dmax has very little blowby, most of the dirt ingested never reaches the oil.
FWIW, My truck had the Amsoil filter from day 1 and had high silicon (and copper) levels that progressively dropped
I also ran an oil analysis on oil that had 7500 miles on it. However I DO run a K&N its not doing too bad from your results I had 15 ppm of silicon. Not too bad from stock considering the mileage I had on the oil. Next oil change will be my tell tale of the "quality" of K&N filters As I dont agree with all the "guaze Q-TIP bashing this site seems to incorporate" What I was wondering is didnt the company test the viscosity of your oil to show how its wearing? Also seems like it skipped over some other elements to test. I would post my test but unfortunately cannot find it at this time. Your high silicon count with the K&N usage could also be from outside your oil pan (ie. dirt getting into your sample). Not to be a loud mouth......I been waiting for someone to sponsor me a Amsoil filter to test side by side with identical trucks but no ones offered yet... I figure we could get some "realworld" results. If you want a really thorough analysis drop me an email and I can give you a number.It was 13 bucks to have mine done with shipping. Bill
Gmanjr96@aol.com
I get mine done for free (Archer Petroleum)and I do the samples mid stream..
Thanks, I will post my next results when the time comes..I am just gonna have a rough time going 5000 miles on a oil change..I aint used to that..
Well, just got my second analysis done by AVlube. My iron and aluminum are up slightly, but the good news is that in spite of my dunderheaded failure to clean my Amsoil oily couch cushion for 34,000 miles, my silicon was down from 12 to 9!! :D I guess that gunk was making it a better filter? My results are in my Yahoo briefcase at the links below if anyone is interested. Iron concerns me a bit, but the reduction in lead and copper with tin still at 0 makes me feel good that I'm not eating any bearings. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Although several members (myself included)have cautioned people about K&N filters, I wouldn't characterize it as "q-tip bashing". Q-tips work great as long as one doesn't puncture an eardrum. ;)
Here's what I've gathered from a multitude of sources, including: a well respected BMW tuner, other diesel web sites, another brand of car enthusiast site( sorry can't recall the brand, but it was a sports car site) and every off-road motorcycle site I've visited.
ALL OF THE ABOVE, except the BMW tuner, stated that the K&N flows better than the stock paper filter. In the case of the BMW, he compared the number of pleats and total surface area of the K&N vs stock filter and came up with equations showing that the K&N would load up faster, restrict airflow faster and allow significantly more dirt through (based on his own testing using the same dirt used in SAE tests) than the stock filter.
The other car and diesel enthusiast sites all cited their own testing, similar to the above, with the difference being the K&N flowed significantly better than stock, but at the cost of lower filtration effectiveness.
The off-road MC/ATV sites were almost unanimous in their opinion of K&N filters. If riding in dusty (especially fine dust) conditions, use a double or triple layer oiled FOAM type filter. If riding where dust is not a problem, use a K&N but always with an Outerwears over it. The off-road shops all sell foam and gauze type filters, with the K&N slightly higher in cost. All of them rebuild MC/ATV engines and they have seen and know first hand how much fine dust can get through a gauze type filter.
All of them basically came to the same conclusion: the K&N may flow more air when brand new, but at lower filtration effectiveness. Now if the owner cleans the K&N filter improperly with compressed air or high pressure water, uses too little or too much oil, all bets are off. The gauze has now been compromised and even larger particles can now get through the tunnels left in the gauze or it's not catching dirt due to too little oil or excess oil is messing with the MAF sensor.
I have nothing against gauze filters. If one wants max. airflow and doesn't mind a little more dust getting thru than other types, then the K&N is just fine. I've run one on my Mustang GT since 1990, along with Fram oil filters. Neither has caused an engine failure, but I'm willing to bet that the engine has suffered more wear in 110,000mi than it would have if using better air and oil filters. It's also not operated in dusty environments.
After carefully researching my diesel truck purchase and selecting the Dmax, I realized I'll probably never be able to afford another truck in this lifetime, so I'm buying the best maintenance items I can to try to protect the investment and ensure I can get buried in it. ;) After reading all that I have (from people who SELL K&N filters), I've come to the conclusion that for OUR application, (high flow turbo diesel requiring very clean air) the oiled foam filter is the best way to go. I know this is just my opinion, but I based it upon lots of info I've read from multiple sources.
Regards, Steve
[ 11-25-2002: Message edited by: SoCalDMAX ]</p>
Who has the bigger name in air filters, K&N or Amsoil?
It is very easy to sell the K&N because it sells itself by name alone. Personally, I dislike the Amsoil company in general, BUT they have some fine products. The dual stage foam filter is one of them. I could put K&N filters on the site, and they would sell themselves like hot cakes, but I choose the Amsoil units for filtration benefits. And no, you will likely NEVER see my picture in the centerfold of the Amsoil propaganda book as a major player...
I will second what SoCalDMAX indicated with respect to the off-road environment and KNN air filters. I have been riding motorcycles in the Southern California deserts for over 35 years. For those that have ridden in this environment, they know how extreme it is with regard to dust. In my teens, I used KNN air filters for several years on a couple of bikes that I were riding at the time. I used these air filters because (at the time) the Dirt Bike magazine(s) indicated it was THE filter to use for max airflow. That was and maybe still is today a true statement. The bikes ran fine but what I always noticed was a very fine layer of dirt (mixed in air filter oil residual) in the rubber air intake tube that connected the air box to the carburetor. This was dirt that was evident to the touch of ones fingers. I tried different combination of oiling the filter to correct this situation, but it never seemed to change. Did the bikes run? Yes, they ran great. Did they have significant engine wear due to dirt getting through the air filter, most likely!
Several years later, I replaced those two bikes. In subsequent years, I remember that I used multi-layer foam air filters from a company call Twin Air. (Similar in construction to the Amsoil air filter, multi layer foam with suspended oil). The air intake tube was always clean. There may have been dirt present, but it was so small in size that it was not perceivable to the touch. In more recent years, most off-road dirt bike manufactures supply a good multi-lay foam air filter with the bike. There has really been no reason to replace them until they wear out from cleaning (usually after every ride).
I doubt that most people will subject their vehicles to the environment that is present in the SoCal off-road desert scene. However, if they do, I would suspect the same results would happen if using a KNN air filter. For me, I will stick with the Amsoil type air filter.
Just passing along some personal experiences that I have had with air filters on motorcycles that operate in an extreme dust/dirt environment. I will let you determine whether it is relevant to the situation at hand.
Regards,
Alan
That is why they use foam filters on lawn mowers...This summer was dry and dusty around here..When I had the K and N installed..
I run BNC filters on my motorcycle..23,000 miles and it still pulls 136 hp on the dyno..12 to 1 comp..But with 17 to 1 comp of the duramax ,plus a turbo ,the intake vaccum is gonna be much greater..So more filtration is a plus..IMO..
Copy and paste this..
http://pacific-audio.com/performance...es/199621.html
[ 11-25-2002: Message edited by: Paintdude ]</p>
I found this on another site.......a reply a guy got from K and N........
They do their own testing. Their testing does not meet the SAE testing standards. On the chart they show our filters has having a shorter life
than paper filters. Our filters are actually warrantied 10 years 1 million miles. The filters can be washed up to 25 times. Depending on your
environment you should only have to wash it once a year or around 30000 miles. Our filters have an efficiency rating of 99.05%. This means that
our filters catch 99.05% of the particles flown through it. This meets or exceed OEM standards. If Amsoil filters flowed and filtered better than
ours then I am sure that the big manufacturers would be having them make the filters for them (Ford, Mopar, Harley, etc.) instead of us. Also we made the filters on the Apache helicopters that flew in Desert Storm. I think that this speaks for itself on the quality of our product. Our oil is not as tacky. As an Amsoil filter gets dirty the tacky oil makes the dirt that much more heavy. As the air is coming through the filter it can actually push this heavy dirt through the filter. Here is how our filters are tested which is the true SAE standard. Our filters are tested by an outside, independent laboratory. They have been
proven to stop at least 99% of particles on a SAE dust test. This test uses particles as low as the 0 - 5 micron range and goes up to 20 microns. For comparison, a paper filter also stops 99% on the same test and the OEM minimum standard is 96%. Foam is generally the worst media with a typical efficiency rating of 75 - 85%. To get higher ratings, the foam must be more dense and therefore way more restrictive. The "tack" characteristic of a K&N allows for increase filtration without loss of flow as well. The testing procedure used is SAE J-726 using ISO Test Dust. This test is the standard of the air filter industry. The test procedure consists of flowing air through the filter at a constant rate (airflow rate is determined by the application) while feeding test dust into the air stream at a rate of 1 gram per cubic meter of air.
As the filter loads with dust the pressure drop across the filter is increased to maintain the prescribed airflow rate. The test is continued until the pressure drop increases 10" H2O above the initial restriction of
the clean element (in this case .78" to 10.78" H2O). At this point the test is terminated. The dirty filter element is then weighed. This weight is compared to the clean element weight to determine the total Dust Capacity. The amount of dust retained by the filter is divided by the total amount of dust fed during the test to determine the Cumulative Efficiency. The K&N filter achieved the following results: Dust Capacity: 305 grams Cumulative Efficiency: 99.05 %. Holding the filter to the light is useless, pin holes are normal. That is what makes a K&N filter. There are actually hundreds of microscopic fibers that cross these holes and when treated with oil, capture and hold the very
fine particles. On the same hand, they allow the filter to flow more air than paper or foam. The filter is 4 ply cotton gauze unlike some competitors
synthetic material filters. The synthetics do not have the very small fibers that natural cotton does. Also, the oil can be pulled off of a foam filter contaminating electronic sensors. It will absorb into cotton and stay in the media. In fact, Honda and Toyota only recommend K&N filters when using
aftermarket high flow filters as K&N is the only brand of filter the oil does NOT come off of. They will not cover a failed sensor if foam filters were used. We got started over 30 years ago making filters for motorcycles and off road racers. The filters did so well that these guys wanted them for their cars
and trucks. We started making filters for these applications and here we are today. If they did not work, we would not still be here and growing every
year. We now make filters for Chrysler/Mopar, Ford Motorsports, Edelbrock, Rotax Engines, and Harley Davidson. We come as original equipment on the 2000 Ford Mustang Cobra-R. We even made filters for the Apache helicopters used in Desert Storm because of maintenance problems with the original paper design.
If they work in these conditions they will work for you. I hope this answers any questions you have and alleviates any concerns about owning a K&N filter.
Thank You.
Paintdude.
As with many things in life, a person has to gather all the information they can, add in some personal experience, and then make a decision and go with it. The paper vs. gauze vs. foam air filter element is probably one of the issues that will be debated on this and other web sites for years to come. The individuals posting on this thread are doing the right thing by using some analytical means (oil analysis) to assist themselves in making a decision.
I followed your reference to (http://pacific-audio.com/performance...es/199621.html). After reading that message I ended up on another web site dealing with Oil Analysis, filtration, etc. (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com
Paintdude,
THANKS ;)
GMC :D
Got another oil analysis heres the results
Miles on oil 7029.0
Miles on truck 28,822
Copper 6
Iron 15
Chrome 2
Lead 0
Aluminum 3
Silicon 10
Molybdenum 82
Sodium 1
Calcium 2420
Tin 0
Potassium 0
Magnesium 242
Zinc 1223
Water negative
Fuel negative
Soot 11
Oxidation 46
Sulfur products 13
Oil viscosity 13.1
Compartment wear is normal. No problems indicated at this time.
The zinc could be part of the additive package. What lube are you running?
Im running Citgo Citguard 500 15w40. My Zinc levels in my last analysis was 943. I just use plain ol' Dino oil. Bill
Citgard is a quality product. I am very familiar with it, used to work for a multi-branded distributor who sold a lot of it. I also have a good friend at Citgo.
I only have 3500 miles on my DMax, I plan to run 6000 - 7500 intervals depending on how much I tow.
Do you tow much? Looks like you are getting good results with 7000 interval.
No towing now. During the spring, summer, and fall, I tow a little landscape trailer that weighs about 2 tons. This is just normal driving with the Juice. I figure Im saving some money by putting a bit more miles on the oil before I change it. And the oil analysis will provide documentation/proof of any problems. And can come in assistance if there are any problems down the road with warranty/owner changed oil.
Plus the Citgo oil is so cheap from our local distributor I really cant go wrong using it.
thechevyhdman
Analysis looks good, but the soot number concerns me. What lab did the analysis and how are they measuring the soot? With the couple of labs I have used 11 would be over twice the allowable limit. The viscicity is at the lower end of a 40 weight. Iron is one of the lowest I have seen. You have a lot of life left in the oil.
Greg
[ 01-19-2003: Message edited by: LanduytG ]</p>
The HD Man is the "idle" KING !!!!!! ;)
Not that I'm far behind.....
Even he will tell you that .......
MAC
[ 01-19-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>
Actually Greg, the last time I posted on this you asked me the same question. Soot is measured in terms of percent allowed based upon Caterpillar's engine specifications. I scored in at %11 the maximum allowed is %100. I guess it doesnt really give an exact amount on how much "soot" is in my oil, But based on how stringent CAT is on their SOS Oil Analysis, It must not be a problem.(They are wicked anal on oil conditions etc) I might call them up tommorrow and find out a more in depth answer. I dont know how soot can be measured(PPM?) But I assume that if my levels were a problem they would be on my butt in no time. If they spot a big problem, they will call you up immediately, happened before when we took delivery of a brand new GMC with a Cat 3126E. Came from the factory with wrong oil They guessed it was 10w30. Cat is a real class act with everything they do. Ive seen hospital rooms cleanliness put to shame by their Oil analysis lab.
thechevyhdman
I don't remember asking before but then I guess I did. I would guess then 11 is still way under 1%. I don't have any problem with Cat's analysis I am sure they are on top of things better than most.
Greg
Hey Chevy HD !! Hows it going ? Wheres a good place to get K&N air filter in Danbury/New Milford ?
Terry, Long time no see. I usually just go to Cruisers on Federal road. After shipping etc, their price is the same as an online store. I bought 7 K&N's their So they took a couple bucks off the top I think it was like 42 or 45 bucks for the filter. I actually have to pick my brother up 2 this week. Not only did he get an 03' Dmax, Alli, Dually, hes joining the site too. But please everyone dont worry, hes the oldest of the seven of us and I am the youngest....Hes not nearly as much of a loudmouth as I am [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Past your "roll off truck" in New Milford today on way to work. Bidding a job in Taunton Hill , any local electricians/plumbers you can recommend ? I'm ready to fire the one I got now, he's turned what I scheduled as an 8 week project in Brookfield into 5 or 6 month one. UGH !!