Oil Analysis

I sent my 15,000 mi. oil analysis in and found water and copper at abnormal levels. What should I do next to track down the problem.

Thanks

Copper is usually bearings, valve guides, or bushings although I am not sure what composition these items are in the DMax engine. Sometimes copper is elevated during break in but should fall off after the first or second oil change. It's also found in some additives.

How many oil changes have you done and at what mileages? Did you do analysis then? Any elevated copper?

What was the water level? This is bad no matter. What did the lab recommend? Anything besides change fluid?

Obviously you got that oil out and replaced with clean asap?

You may try calling the dealer and asking if they will review the analysis with you. If the lab is credible it would seem like they would rather look now rather than when the truck comes in on a roll back.

Good luck.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>

Copper is typically somewhat high. What were the actual numbers?

Suggest having AV lube do your analysis so you can have George do the review...

Not to sure if I would discuss extended drain intervals with my dealer....Bingo, they will point the finger.......I would do another at Recommended drain interval then discuss with dealer IF still high.....Water or antifreeze?? Water could be result of container you used,or condinsation....Was container clean and dry?? Also did you do a drain off of at least a quart or better before sample taken in an alternate container??

Just some ideas,good luck.....

Question for you oil specialist guys....When should sample be drawn, HOT? Or Cold prior to starting? Does it matter??

Never seen this brought up....

MAC

Good point about the drain interval Mac.

Drawn or mid-stream, samples should be at op temp. Mid- stream samples can get contaminated easier though, for obvious reasons.

Some analyticals I've seen in the past don't distinguish between water and glycol, or better stated, don't identify glycol specifically but the water shows and because it's the carrier OF the glycol the cooling system becomes suspect.

This may have changed in recent years as analytical methods have improved and become more economical. I am a little out of the mainstream on this, I have been working on the environmental side of the lube industry for the past 7 years but our lab methods have improved dramatically in this time frame and we are looking for similar elements in some cases.

Samples should always be taken hot. Plus let some oil drain out before catching it. Depending on what lab you use it will give water and glycol content. I have switched over to AV lube for oil analysis, I like the format and George is a great help.

Greg

I just received the report back from my first engine oil analysis, done by Shell Care. Everything looks good, with the exception of silicon at 49ppm. Test was at 9700 miles, just prior to 3rd oil change - about 4500 miles on this oil. Previous changes were at 5200 miles and 1350 miles.

Report states that silicon levels were due to non-abrasive gasket/sealant material. Truck had water pump replaced, and then the engine front cover replaced after it was cracked - presumably during water pump R&R - both while this oil was on board. Good news is no glycol present.

Question is, can analysis differentiate between bad silicon/dirt and harmless non-abrasive gasket/sealant silicon? Or, are they just assuming that it's so?

Thanks!

Don

Yes it can, if wear metal content is high it is dirt.

Greg

The silicon levels were high due to non-abrasive gasket/sealant material? All my life (55 yrs) I've understtod silicon to be sand, or directly related to or derived from sand. I've never seen any gasket/sealant using sand in the mix. Now I have seen silicone used for gaskets, but that's an entirely different animal. Silicon and silicone are NOT the same, not even close. I can understand how silicon levels would increase due to contamination during a gasket change. Perhaps that is what they meant.

Big Lake:

Check to be sure your air filter is seated properly. Check all air cleaner box clamps/hoses. Had this high silicon situation on my Sub once, turned out the hose to the turbo had popped off the airbox. Oil analysis can be a lifesaver!

To reiterate what Greg already mentioned, the lab cannot differentiate gasket material from dirt. However, it is easily discerned by reading the complete wear metals analysis. Especially with multiple oil analysis resutls, by monitoring the trending of the wear metals in relation to the silicon, it is then easy to discern true dirt from gasket material OR a contaminated oil sample. Elevated dirt to the 49 PPM level WILL cause elevated wear metals, especially soft bearing materials such as copper, tin, lead. If these numbers are relatively low, unflagged, then it is most likely either gasket material OR a contaminated sample. It is MOST important that the oil sample is captured properly. Warm engine oil, midstream sample. The sterile sample bottle top must be kept on/covered until just before you put the bottle into midstream. Even a small spec of dirt falling into the botttle can skew results.
Just handing the sample bottle to Joe Greasegun, without instructions, will almost always guarantee a bad sample.. One must have a consistent, properly taken sample for the results to be meaningful.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Thanks for the replies - answers make sense. I have a fumoto valve which makes it easy to obtain samples, kept cover on until taking sample, and took mid-stream. I'm thinking replacing the H2O pump and front cover, all without changing the oil afterward, may have had something to do with it. Lots of gaskets and sealer used I imagine. I'll do another analysis in about 3K.

The dealer first changed my oil @ 200mi after picking it up from another dealer. It got Delvac 1 @ 1,000 miles, again @ 5,000mi then against my religon I waited till I hit 10,000mi for my next change....So, here is my first analisis with 5,000mi on the oil, AC Delco filter, and AFE installed for about 2,000 of those miles....Keep in mind my truck IS EGR equiped....Copper 17, Iron 21, Chrome 2, Lead 8, Aluminum 9, Silicon 10, Molybdenum 3, Sodium 0, Calcium 1278, Tin 1, Potassium 0, Magnesium 267, Zinc 661, Water neg, Fuel neg, Antifreeze neg, Soot 47, Oxidation 11, Sulfer products 0, Viscosity 14.3....This is a strict Caterpiller analisis performed by H.O. Penn in Newington CT.

Todd- this oil is in good shape. The magnesium seems "unusual" but it may be part of the add pack. If you are going to stay with the synthetic and you get this kind of result again I would go to 7000 interval after and try it again.

I am going to go 6k with Delvac 1300 dino.

Toddster, here are the rusults of my last check at 20,000 miles 12/12 2002. Oil Delvac 1300 15-40 with 76hrs on it. Amsoil air filter. AC Delco 2232.
Iron 16
Chromium 1
Lead 5
Copper 7
Tin 0
Aluminum 3
Nickel 0
Silver 0
Silicon 11
Boron 78
Sodium 0
Magnesium 471
Calcium 2595
Barium 0
Phosphorus 1347
Zinc 1594
Molybdenum 66
Titanium 0
Vanadium 0
Potassium 0
Fuel &lt;1
Viscosity 14.21
Water 0%
Soot 0 (%vol)
Glycol neg
"Results of tests performed indicate no corrective action required."

In both cases the Amsoil filter looks to be doing a great job.

Ive come to notice in my oil analysis reports (done by same place as Toddster) that their is no difference in silicon counts between Amsoil and K&N. Not trying to beat a dead horse, but K&N filters do just as good a job as Amsoil based upon my oil analysis. I can post my last 3 if anyone is interested. I go 7,000 miles between oil changes too.

Toddster is running the AFE Magnum Force......

His silicon level is lower......

MAC :eek:

Hi Toddster

I found my report from my last oil change in October. It was also done at HO Penn the results were
Copper 3
Iron 17
Chrome 3
Lead 0
Aluminum 0
Silicon 0
Molybdenum 0
Sodium 5
Calcium 2816
Tin 0
Potassium 0
Magnesium 21
Zinc 942
Water Negative
Fuel Negative
Antifreeze Negative
Soot 34
Oxidation 19
Sulfur Prd 6
Viscosity 13.9

Oil had 10,000 miles on it
Truck had 210,000 miles on it
Oil was Shell Rotella 15W40 Dino
Truck is my Freightliner Tri-Axle Dump Truck
Engine is CAT 3406E 14.7 Liter
550 Horsepower 1,850 Foot Pounds of Stump pulling Torque :D
I wish they would put a CAT motor in a Chevy PU but my new Duramax seems to be working good for now.
Personally I like the Dino oil it seems to be working good for me so far and I'll try it in my Duramax when its time for its first oil change.

IMO oil changes are cheap compared to rebuilding an engine and theres no need to try to stretch out an oil change to the point where you see some adverse effects in the oil reports. 5000 mlies is more than enough miles to change the oil for a PU.
Just my 2 cents

Later Diesel Dragon :cool:

Diesel Dragon- You obviously have excellent maintenance standards. I can't ever remember seeing an oil analysis with zero silicon!

THECHEVYHDMAN

i was told by k&n that they do not make a oil filter for the duramax. what # k&n are you using for the oil filter?
thank you

Friend of mine with a Dmax & the Amsoil filter system just got an analysis back.

196 on Copper :eek: :eek: Everything else was low.

Only 8,000 miles on the truck & completely stock with no Juice. Mainly short hop city driving with few hwy miles & driven easy. No towing. Amsoil is suggesting bearing wear.

Any ideas?

Billy

What oil? How many changes? How many analysis? Any copper before?

TraceF,

Not sure but I beleive 3 changes. The test was done on the Amsoil Synth 5w30. First two changes was with regular 5w30. Don't know which brand.

This was their 1st analysis.

Billy

Diesel Vette....Im running the stock GM oil filter and K&N AIR FILTER..... Ill take the risk using a non stock air filter, but would never take the risk (after all the problems in the beginning with aftermarket oil filters) of using a non stock oil filter. Out of the 10 past oil analysis I have done on abunch of different vehicles I have never seen a 0 for silicon myself. Bill

You guys got me wondering if I copied the report down wrong, but I didn't the Si Silicon was 0 and the 3 reports before that one they were 4,0, and 1. All with 10,000 miles between changes. The truck has dual Nelson Air filters, they must work good I guess. I just sent another sample out Friday I should get the report back in a few days I'll let you know what it is. Also the Air filters now have 30,000 miles on them I'll be changing them this week. Talk to you later

Diesel Dragon :cool:

Billy14-

If your friend lives in TX I would change to 15w40. If heu used 5w30 in the past and it wasn't diesel rated he used a product not intended for his engine and could have done bearing damage that is continuing to be displayed.

Change the oil, do an analysis of it- and again on the new oil at 3 or 4k miles to see if he has a bearing going away.

It seems everyone has elevated Cu levels in their Duramax oil samples. Does this seem to be the case and should we be worried about it? Anyone have bearing or wrist pin problems?

No problems here, but I only have 6.3kmi. When my truck was brand new I did three (Delo 15w40) oil changes at 1000 mile intervals and sent a sample for Analysis from the third change. My CU was 24ppm at 3k miles. Is this high for a Dmax? I switched to synthetic at the 3kmi change and installed a bypass at the 5kmi change. I plan to do another analysis at 8k. Hopefully the CU will be trending down.

Cu levels on my 6.5 ran between 2 and 0ppm (lower with a Baldwin B50 bypass installed). Cu levels on my 2001 Malibu were 94ppm at 11kmi and 55ppm at 16kmi. I used Oil Analyzers and and they didn’t flag any of the CU levels as a problem. Comments?

Yes, elevated copper level for Duramax engines is the norm. Engines have 'signature' wear metals, depending on bearing and engine design. Many times Japanese designed engines produce relatively higher copper levels and carry those consistent readings through a very, very long life. I just reviewed a Komatsu oil analysis Friday for an engine with over 31,000 hours on it, which is incredibly long life for a large mining machine.
This is why it is important to look at oil analysis results over time, monitoring trends vs. looking at just one oil analysis result in isolation.
George

Mine is at 5ppm as of my latest sampling. Same with silicon. Highest metal was iron at 16ppm. As George will attest, bypass filtration has taken my oil samples to cleanliness levels similar to my fuel!

ISO spec 15/14/10.

I too had high copper before...

I'm running dual by-pass and I have had three oil samples tested. at 9000 mi copper was 96 at 18000 mi copper was 344 at 19000 mi 323 and add a little water on top of that. I decided to change my oil and retest soon.

I noticed between the 18 and 19xxx tests oxidation went down 2%. I think that is impossible so I called oil Analyzers. They told me the tests are not accurate because the testing devices vary measurements somewhat when they calibrate them.

JK- This test was 4000 mi. towing my fifth wheel to Fla. and back. Iron was 12, Cu was 25 and all the rest of the wear metals were single digits or zero. Si was 10 using Amzoil filter. Do you think a bypass filter will help?

I have been running oil analysis at every oil change (except the first one at 1000 mi). Here are the results:

Cu/ Pb/ Sn

5150 mi/ 154/ 22/ 19
11100 mi/ 76/ 13/ 11
15751 mi/ 25/ 7/ 5
20300 mi/ 15/ 4/ 4

Blackstone Lab comments:
"We are impressed with this engine. Upper end wear (al, cr, fe) have been reading steady since the engine was new. Lower end wear (cu, pb, sn) are improving. Steady wear trends are a good indication that engine is mechanically sound.

[ 04-09-2003: Message edited by: RichBailey ]</p>

I've never had my oil tested so I'd appreciate a short course in
what it entails.

1. How big a sample?
2. What is used for a sample container?
3. What is the best way to collect a sample?
4. How often should it be done?
5. Cost per analysis?
6. Shipping cost?
7. Will a dealer pay any attention to abnormal values?
8. What the heck is ferrography?
9. Recommended Labs?
10. Any other good information about getting our oil tested?

Thanks,

56Nomad

My Take ...


1. How big a sample?

*Three four oz


2. What is used for a sample container?


* The bottle comes in the kit....


3. What is the best way to collect a sample?

*Hot with a Fumuto valve drain off at least a quart first....


4. How often should it be done?


*Depends on you, what you chose for drain intervals ....

5. Cost per analysis?


*Varys around twenty bucks ...

6. Shipping cost?

*Should be included ....


7. Will a dealer pay any attention to abnormal values?

* Only if you showed them ... I would think this could show go maintenance records if your vin is clearly shown on report ...


8. What the heck is ferrography?

*=&gt;http://www.predictusa.com/ferrography.htm


9. Recommended Labs?


*I liked the way this report was ...=&gt;http://www.blackstone-labs.com/body_index.html


10. Any other good information about getting our oil tested?

*I like the idea that it is an early warning sign for a potential problem ...


Mac

*

[ 05-22-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

I had my oil analyzed for the first time at my last oil change. The Blackstone kit comes with a bottle to catch your oil (about 4 oz.). It comes with another bottle to put the oil bottle in. The outer bottle has a mailing label. It cost $1.52 to send it back to Blackstone. The cost of analysis is $20. Check out my report.

http://www.geocities.com/one_badz71/blackstone49964.jpg

You've gotten good answers from mackin on all of them. I'll just add my $.02 to a couple of them.

4. Either when you change your oil or some other interval around that time. By that I mean, if you change your oil at 5,000 miles, sample then. If you are going for extended drain intervals, sample at the same time you would change your filter.

7. Only if the hunyuck knows what he's (she's) looking at. You may find one, but the smart ones are a rare breed indeed. If you find one be sure you treat them right.

9. I use Oil Analyzers. Only because I use Amsoil and they have a long history with that oil. Not to mention it costs me $14.95 a test.

10. Getting your oil tested is a great way to really take a look inside your engine to see if there are any potential problems in the making. But it is not as good as ferrography. You should consider ferrography if you get a couple of oil samples that are in question. Then you will have a definate answer to what is causing the error. For routine purposes, regular oil analysis (viscosity, ph, titration, spectrographic analysis, etc.) is good enough. If you want to see the kind of information that you get with an analysis, you can check mine out here http://amianthus.home.sprynet.com/Oilanalysis.xls

George Morrison is a great resource for this kind of information in the fact that he's probably forgotten more about lubricants than you or I will ever know. Be honored that he spends as much time on this site as he does (he does make his rounds though). Top shelf individual for sure.

[ 05-23-2003: Message edited by: Amianthus ]</p>

Just recieved latest oil analysis results.
Curious to see what others have found, especially Mobil users.
Any oil experts feel free to comment.


If anyone wants to compare their brand........

Using Rotella 5-40 syn. sample at 24,603
5,566 miles on oil, AC filter.

Comments:
"TBN = 10.8 indicating plenty of active additive remaining in oil"
"Insolubles low at 0.1% showing good filtration and complete combustion"

All elements (20) in normal range except for these 2.
Copper was 18 ppm vs. 9 ppm avg
Lead 9 ppm vs. 4 ppm avg

18 Others (in ppm):

Alum. 1
Chrom. 0
Iron 12
Tin 0
Molyb. 0
Nickel 0
Mang. 0
Silv. 0
Titan. 0
Potas. 6
Boron 2
Silic. 7 (Amsoil filter)
Sodium 2
Calcium 3741
Phosph. 838
Magnes. 6
Zinc 969
Barium 1

Properties:

SUS Viscosity = 72.3
Flashpoint = 440
Fuel % = &lt;0.5
Antifreeze % = 0.0
Water % = 0.0
Insolubles = 0.1

I am certainly not an oil expert, but I will add a few comments. I have had three oil analysis's done on my truck (only 14K mile total).

Each time the copper has been lower. Seems to be a trend with these engines. If I recall correctly, I remember reading on this forum where George Morrison indicated that higher copper levels were a characteristic of Isuzu motors. Maybe do a search to find that topic.

The other item I have had warnings about is the silicon. This parameter has been steadily decreasing also. The last oil change it was down to 10. It had previously been 35 and 20.

I have found the following website to be a good resource for oil and oil analysis related questions/answers:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi


Alan