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Question of economics-
If a 2-micron filter in-line before the oem filter at an initial cost of about $110 with a element replacement cost of about $12 is improving filtration by a factor of- say for purposes of the question- a factor of 2...
and consequently the oem replacent filter is expected to last at least twice as long (hypothetically) at a replacement cost of about $56 according to my dealer...
will the efficiencies from an economic standpoint support all the extra expense of going post oem?
My assumption is that the assembly will be costly as will the replacement elements and we know that the burden of the filtration will remain on the already costly oem as primary.
Now I know someone is going to say "if it saves you $6k injectors, etc, etc, etc".
I guess the real question is how much insurance am I really willing to buy? I think the 2-micron in-line primary will be very effective compared to the oem.
Can't wait to see the forthcoming test results on Todd's Stanadyne.
[ 01-15-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>
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Trace,
My FM-100 was only aobut $90 and the OEM filters are only $20 from Kennedy.
Maybe this helps.
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I got some information from a Detroit Diesel shop today about Davco Manufacturing. They sell
fuel filters for Detroit and other diesel engines.
I went to their site tonight and found that they claim to make a filter that works to 2 microns.
Here are the links it does have an interesting demo they do on there site called "Seeing is Believing"
Home page: http://www.davcomfg.com/pages/home.html
filter model 232:
http://www.davcomfg.com/media/DP233Intro.doc
Just wondered if George has any info on this or if anyone else does.
[img]smile.gif[/img]
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Economics will not be a major factor here. The cost will be in the mount/filter assy for the secondary filter which should last a year or better. Element cost will be reasonable as well and in the $35ish range. The OEM filter service intervals will remain the same.
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John,
The test results sound good. Are there any pictures of the prototype? What kind of secondary
filter are you using? I'm kinda coming in on the tail end of things and couldn't find your filter info.in the search.
My filter installation is on hold. Was kind of waiting to see how all these ideas would shake out. :eek:
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srubrn,
Thanks for the correction. I hope John will be able to put a
package together, cuz he'll have a new customer once
it's ready.
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a bear,
Can't disclose the details just yet as they are not set yet. I DEFINITELY will not set a release date judging by the critical nature of this crowd :eek:
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Hey John, if you need a Beta tester out here running this Sweet California (Dirty) Crude, let me know. I know you have a short list of "locals" standing in line back there, but for Nationwide Coverage you gotta branch out LOL [img]smile.gif[/img]
ChevysRus@hotmail.com
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ardmore,
Im using that filter but it's mounted under the hood with no lift pump and have had no probablems with it.
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TraceF,
Sorry, I didn't see your post.
CC is many miles miles from here About a two hour or so drive.CC is at the end of hwy 23 in Venice La. and has some awesome charter Boats that can put you on the Tuna, especially if you go out at night. Slidell is where I-59 I-12 and I-10 meet. about 15 miles northeast of New Orleans and 10 miles west of the southern-most west border of Mississippi. You will have to pass through Slidell to get there coming from Fl. Are you hauling your own rig down or are you chartering. If so with which Capt. I enjoy an occasional trip outside but mainly run my Bay Boat around the shallows of Delacroix for Specks and Shell Beach for Reds. You can't beat fresh Tuna (we try to eat it all in about a weeks time). Once you freeze it it's just not the same. They are slaughtering the specks down in empire right now in a few choice areas.
Shoot me an e-mail b4 you pass through.
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pepperidge- Taking my own boat. :D
Not much into spec fishin but love the striking fish and agree with you on the tuna steaks.
I put CC and Slidell together because of a boat dealer ad. Maybe he has a branch in Slidell.
Thanks! [img]smile.gif[/img]
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JK
Keep us informed. I for one am interested in your solution to this.
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jcopeland,
I am very interested in the arrangement you used to adapt the CAT 2 micron filter into the DMAX system.
Please e-mail me at skih2o@carolina.rr.com with further detail.
Thanks and regards,
T.D.
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jcopeland:
Would you please email me at
dndstarr@shaw.ca
I am very interested in your CAT filter
hook up.
I have been trying to find time to visit CAT here and see just what they had to offer in
using their filter between the OEM filter and the pump.
thanks
[img]smile.gif[/img]
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jcopeland,
Would appreciate an email from you on CAT Filter location. Email Ld1440@wmconnect.com
Don
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On 10-28-2002, george morrison posted:
>I wish we could post photos on this site; I have an
>electron microscope photo of an injector at
>95,000 miles that looks like the lunar surface.
>All due to dirt. Our high pressure fuel systems are
>very susceptible to ultra fine particulates. We are
>calling it 'dirt' but it is really ultra-fine contamination. :eek: :eek:
So every time we take a trip....... I have a mental picture
of this "sandpaper" fuel easily passing thru my filter and
scoring my injectors. Not a nice thought. :mad: :mad:
I thought for sure that with this long Holiday weeked, John
Kennedy would have figgered out how to solve the problem
and have his unit for sale to us. :D :D
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56Nomad,
I have 3 different machine shops doing bids/prototype mounts, but until I get a couple more out/installed/sampled and can prove repeatability in the handws of others, I can't say much...
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Well I am waiting on a fuel sample now that I sent directly to Stanadyne from the FM-100 on my truck. If it checks out ok then I am going to send a second sample to George Morrison that I took at the same time to qualify the results. For all of you on the side lines chomping at the bit, hang on, results are near.
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Schwing! Music to my ears!
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Got back some results today and it was not exactly what we were looking for. It's possible that my sample taking technique is the issue. After talking to Stanadyne's engineers, we have a way to take the samples that should give us the results we want. I am taking the samples again tommorrow after I add a little more hardware to the filter setup to better facilitate the sample taking. I feel very confident that the filter is fine and it is my technique that is in question.
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found this item interesting saying the Baldwin fuel filters are now better than Cat:
http://www.baldwinfilter.com/engineer/98_2.html
[img]smile.gif[/img]
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Well it is almost midnight and I have re-read this entire
string....... whew!
I had over-looked Todd's picture of his set up.............
http://www.oldmacksrus.com/Diesel%20...ts/filter2.jpg
It looks like a reasonable solution.
Todd, any more results since you last reported on 01-23-2003?
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The Stanadyne filter is a very good quality unit. The Racor is as well. I have duplicated Todd's installation with minor differences. Todd has forwarded me the test results and I intended (still do) to get our lab to give me some comments and ideas but I have been traveling and not given this any attention. If we can add anything to the interpretation he already has I am sure he will share it.
I installed my 2-mic unit at about 5k miles and replaced the oem at the same time. When I open it I will report the findings. After 5k more miles I will open the oem filter again.
I know this isn't very scientific but I am only trying to accomplish a quality prefiltering of the fuel and I think Todd is on the right track with this.
E-mail me if you would like to see pics of the installation.
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The Baldwin article is dated Feb 17th 1998
Do they make a filter that will be small enough yet filter to 2 mics that we can use on the Dmax?
The fuel filters that I have seen on the Cat aps are huge.
Denny
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For the people who are trying to put a fuel filter downstream of your oem filter try looking under your Air Filter for room.
I have a 2001 D/A and I had enough room to mount a Racor 490 Series System under my Air Filter Assembly. The filter pushed out on on the plastic inner-fender a bit but I don't have large tires that rub. I also had to modify the bracket that holds one of the horns in place.
Now when I replace the filter (hopefully long intervals) I take out my right headlight and prime the filter.
Hope this helps somebody. ;)
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John,
The fuel filter and results look good. I'm sure a lot of thought went into the mounting location, hardware, media type and what not. I will definitely be at the front of the line when its available. Hopefully still in Feb. Looks to me like you completed all the homework. Sure saves me the time and headaches. :D :D :D
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John, where does the line start? [img]smile.gif[/img] This is a "must have" for me. Thanks for all the hard work you do for us, along with many others here!
Steve
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Dear George and John,
I can't bear to re-read this string again. :confused: I'm excited that
John is almost to production... but could both/either of you
tell us (again) or summarize why you believe "post" filtering from our
original equipment is better than "pre" filtering as Todd
and Trace have done.
John, you wrote " Economics will not be a major factor here"
To a non mechanic, it would seem that a "pre" filter
with a 2 micron filter and a cost of $12 to replace would be more
economical than replacing a $35 "post" filter even if you have
a one year life span on it. I'm not trying to be critical..... just
looking for the best way to treat my truck.
Thanks much [img]smile.gif[/img]
[ 02-06-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
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I wanted it AFTER the factory unit so we would still service the factory unit, and the factory water in fuel light would see the water first. By installing as a secondary unit, we are only cutting hose which can be easily reversed.
While not necessary, I will be replacing the short section of hose from the Bosch EDU to the filter unit, and routing the outlet down to my secondary unit. This way all of the substantial lengths of the OE spongy hose will be replaced. I'm not sure if we can get away w/o rotating the factory outlet nipple, but I rotated mine.
I've been told that the filter unit I am using is actually a fraction of a percentage point more efficient than the other units mentioned above.
General production of the mounting kits will likely be done by a DP Member! The finished units will be anodized and likely electro polished to remove any microscopic surface "fuzz" which was not done to my prototype. Hopes are that the sample results from the first prototypes will back up my results!
BTW, we are still at least a couple of weeks away from any production as I am still working out a few details.
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John,
you wrote: "I wanted it AFTER the factory unit so we
would still service the factory unit, and the factory
water in fuel light would see the water first. By installing
as a secondary unit, we are only cutting hose which
can be easily reversed."
Lets assume that we deal with the water issues with
quality fuel additives. As a secondary unit, the "pre-filter"
installation can also be easily reversed. Perhaps, I am
viewing this too simplistically, but basic question is....
Can a "pre-filter" work as effectively as a "post-filter"?
This would be in respect to filtration as well as required flow pressure
issues.
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I guess a pre filter could, but if a big slug of water hits my filter you will not know it. I'd prefer to let the OE filter sort out the "sticks and stones" and maintain it at the recommended intervals to keep GM's shorts out of a bunch, but if you'd rather plumb it this way, go for it!
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I would have some fuel sample results for ya'll by now if UPS had not have lost them. I am going to try and take some more samples tommorrow. It takes about a week to get them into the lab. Unless the results show otherwise, I am still happy with my installation of the Stanadyne FM-100 "2 micron pre-filter".
Funy thing happened though. I took my truck in to get the balence rate checked on my injectors and the tech II, just said THANKS.
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RWTD er um Srubrn,sorry..... :D
J/K couldn't help myself.....
Waiting patiently for your results......We do appreciate the leg work....
MAC :D :D :D
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mackin- I always get a grin out of your posts. Sure wish I knew what code you speak sometimes though.
Comments on the past dozen or so posts- I can easily check for water in the see-thru bowl of my filter be leaning over and looking from the passenger side and it's a lot easier to drain than the oem. If a big slug of water were to get by it which is very unlikely, the oem water sensor will still say so.
Close inspection of the fuel line I cut shows that it has a flex hose on both ends and could easily be replaced at any time.
My goal was to have a quality in-line prefilter to keep me from dealing with the oem unit as often. For about $130 including hoses I believe this goal was accomplished.
The only other modification I will make and recommend to anyone taking this route will be to make a mini guard if you go off road. I am thinking a pipe hoop with two flat tabs I can bolt through the bottom of the frame rails.
By the way- the pics I saw of JK's assembly are way cool and there is no reason why it couldn't be pre-oem if you can find room for it under the truck. I considered putting mine in front of the fuel tank where there is more space but the Stanadyne unit is small enough I was OK with it on the frame rail and I didn't have to spend any time designing a mounting bracket.
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I am going to get a bit esoteric here but another reason I like John Kennedy's setup is that John's post filter serves as a wonderful dampener for the harmonics that back-feed through the fuel from the injector/pump firings. These vibrations act like an ultra-sonic cleaner for the fuel filter/water separator. CAT experienced this when they changed from a 20 micron to a 7 micron absolute fuel filter to capture the 7 micron particle size. The 7 micron filter did not capture a significant amount due to the backfeed harmonics. Thus CAT had to switch to a 2 micron absolute (beta 200) to achieve a 7 micron beta 200 level cleaning. So, we should have some synergism here with John Kennedy's setup. By dampening the injector backfeed at the first filter, our OEM filter/water separator performance should be enhanced appreciably as it is going to have almost lab conditions to work in and not ultra sound cleaned constantly. At minimum, the OEM ultra sound should be minimized.. This will also enhance the water separation capability as the firing frequency serves to maintian water in loose solution.. Plus, my mentor always said "send a man to do a boy's job" and John is doing just that with his filter arrangement..
George Morrison, STLE CLS
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Called the top banana diesel service mechanic for Stanadyne
in our area who installs and services filter systems
into many of the agricultural rigs. I was just about to put this
together................
Yikes! He says that they will *not* install a 2 micron primary filter
because of quick clogging of that filter and the resultant problems.
They have tried this before and he speaks with experience.
If I still planned to do the "pre-filtering" installation, he recommends
going with a 30 micron primary filter.
With the Duramax engine, he strongly suggests that any supplemental
fuel filtering be done as a secondary filter *after* the factory unit.
He also feels that with proper fuel lubrication, our factory filter set up
is fine.
OK, this reminds me of having a life threatening disease and then
consulting with 10 eminent medical experts. When you finished
asking all the questions........ you've got 10 different opinions
That's what is so great about this forum........ we keep learning.
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"OK, this reminds me of having a life threatening disease and then consulting with 10 eminent medical experts. When you finished asking all the questions........ you've got 10 different opinions."
Well, in this case, not quite. Here we have 2 experts (JK & GM) and a bunch of enthusiastic amateurs.
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We won't debate expert here but my filter has almost 700 miles on it and there is only a BB size drop of water in it. Time will tell on this. At least we have a bunch of different schools of thought testing ideas.
BTW- the Stanadyne tech I spoke to recommended my set up, I didn't actually take Todd's word for it although after speaking with him several times I think he is completely credible.
The reason I was asking for recommendations was to see if there was a better application for my purpose. The 2-mic was what was recommended for what I wanted to acheive and the tech seemed confidant the filter would go 6-7k miles which is the interval I intend to change it, along with the cc oil.
Also, the part numbers I got from Todd via e-mail aren't the parts I bought. My head had a different part number. Maybe something to do with the inlet/outlet size.
Sounds like the Stanadyne guys may not all be on the same sheet of music !?!
Final comment- if it clogs quick it must be filtering well! :D
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While I might be a amateur I go by a old saying ,
"When you don't know something, surround yourself with people who do". Do you think Bill Gates is a expert programmer, no he has people do it for him.
As far as the 2 micron filter stopping up, that is installed pre-OEM. Mine is running fine, this filter has about 1200 miles on it so far. This no opinion, it is fact.
I have been looking for a good and inexpensive solution to our fuel filter problem. I have been working hard on getting good data. I assure any of you that anything that I put out about this subject is backed by scientific fact not just what I think. If the test results show that the Stanadyne won't do what it is supposed to do then I will be the first to admit it and then I will take it off my truck and find another.
Remember, I have nothing to gain with this. I am not sell ang anything, just giving free info. You can take it or leave.
Off my soap box now.
