Oil Analysis

I sent my 15,000 mi. oil analysis in and found water and copper at abnormal levels. What should I do next to track down the problem.

Thanks

Copper is usually bearings, valve guides, or bushings although I am not sure what composition these items are in the DMax engine. Sometimes copper is elevated during break in but should fall off after the first or second oil change. It's also found in some additives.

How many oil changes have you done and at what mileages? Did you do analysis then? Any elevated copper?

What was the water level? This is bad no matter. What did the lab recommend? Anything besides change fluid?

Obviously you got that oil out and replaced with clean asap?

You may try calling the dealer and asking if they will review the analysis with you. If the lab is credible it would seem like they would rather look now rather than when the truck comes in on a roll back.

Good luck.

[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>

Copper is typically somewhat high. What were the actual numbers?

Suggest having AV lube do your analysis so you can have George do the review...

Not to sure if I would discuss extended drain intervals with my dealer....Bingo, they will point the finger.......I would do another at Recommended drain interval then discuss with dealer IF still high.....Water or antifreeze?? Water could be result of container you used,or condinsation....Was container clean and dry?? Also did you do a drain off of at least a quart or better before sample taken in an alternate container??

Just some ideas,good luck.....

Question for you oil specialist guys....When should sample be drawn, HOT? Or Cold prior to starting? Does it matter??

Never seen this brought up....

MAC

Good point about the drain interval Mac.

Drawn or mid-stream, samples should be at op temp. Mid- stream samples can get contaminated easier though, for obvious reasons.

Some analyticals I've seen in the past don't distinguish between water and glycol, or better stated, don't identify glycol specifically but the water shows and because it's the carrier OF the glycol the cooling system becomes suspect.

This may have changed in recent years as analytical methods have improved and become more economical. I am a little out of the mainstream on this, I have been working on the environmental side of the lube industry for the past 7 years but our lab methods have improved dramatically in this time frame and we are looking for similar elements in some cases.

Samples should always be taken hot. Plus let some oil drain out before catching it. Depending on what lab you use it will give water and glycol content. I have switched over to AV lube for oil analysis, I like the format and George is a great help.

Greg

I just received the report back from my first engine oil analysis, done by Shell Care. Everything looks good, with the exception of silicon at 49ppm. Test was at 9700 miles, just prior to 3rd oil change - about 4500 miles on this oil. Previous changes were at 5200 miles and 1350 miles.

Report states that silicon levels were due to non-abrasive gasket/sealant material. Truck had water pump replaced, and then the engine front cover replaced after it was cracked - presumably during water pump R&R - both while this oil was on board. Good news is no glycol present.

Question is, can analysis differentiate between bad silicon/dirt and harmless non-abrasive gasket/sealant silicon? Or, are they just assuming that it's so?

Thanks!

Don

Yes it can, if wear metal content is high it is dirt.

Greg

The silicon levels were high due to non-abrasive gasket/sealant material? All my life (55 yrs) I've understtod silicon to be sand, or directly related to or derived from sand. I've never seen any gasket/sealant using sand in the mix. Now I have seen silicone used for gaskets, but that's an entirely different animal. Silicon and silicone are NOT the same, not even close. I can understand how silicon levels would increase due to contamination during a gasket change. Perhaps that is what they meant.

Big Lake:

Check to be sure your air filter is seated properly. Check all air cleaner box clamps/hoses. Had this high silicon situation on my Sub once, turned out the hose to the turbo had popped off the airbox. Oil analysis can be a lifesaver!

To reiterate what Greg already mentioned, the lab cannot differentiate gasket material from dirt. However, it is easily discerned by reading the complete wear metals analysis. Especially with multiple oil analysis resutls, by monitoring the trending of the wear metals in relation to the silicon, it is then easy to discern true dirt from gasket material OR a contaminated oil sample. Elevated dirt to the 49 PPM level WILL cause elevated wear metals, especially soft bearing materials such as copper, tin, lead. If these numbers are relatively low, unflagged, then it is most likely either gasket material OR a contaminated sample. It is MOST important that the oil sample is captured properly. Warm engine oil, midstream sample. The sterile sample bottle top must be kept on/covered until just before you put the bottle into midstream. Even a small spec of dirt falling into the botttle can skew results.
Just handing the sample bottle to Joe Greasegun, without instructions, will almost always guarantee a bad sample.. One must have a consistent, properly taken sample for the results to be meaningful.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Thanks for the replies - answers make sense. I have a fumoto valve which makes it easy to obtain samples, kept cover on until taking sample, and took mid-stream. I'm thinking replacing the H2O pump and front cover, all without changing the oil afterward, may have had something to do with it. Lots of gaskets and sealer used I imagine. I'll do another analysis in about 3K.

The dealer first changed my oil @ 200mi after picking it up from another dealer. It got Delvac 1 @ 1,000 miles, again @ 5,000mi then against my religon I waited till I hit 10,000mi for my next change....So, here is my first analisis with 5,000mi on the oil, AC Delco filter, and AFE installed for about 2,000 of those miles....Keep in mind my truck IS EGR equiped....Copper 17, Iron 21, Chrome 2, Lead 8, Aluminum 9, Silicon 10, Molybdenum 3, Sodium 0, Calcium 1278, Tin 1, Potassium 0, Magnesium 267, Zinc 661, Water neg, Fuel neg, Antifreeze neg, Soot 47, Oxidation 11, Sulfer products 0, Viscosity 14.3....This is a strict Caterpiller analisis performed by H.O. Penn in Newington CT.

Todd- this oil is in good shape. The magnesium seems "unusual" but it may be part of the add pack. If you are going to stay with the synthetic and you get this kind of result again I would go to 7000 interval after and try it again.

I am going to go 6k with Delvac 1300 dino.

Toddster, here are the rusults of my last check at 20,000 miles 12/12 2002. Oil Delvac 1300 15-40 with 76hrs on it. Amsoil air filter. AC Delco 2232.
Iron 16
Chromium 1
Lead 5
Copper 7
Tin 0
Aluminum 3
Nickel 0
Silver 0
Silicon 11
Boron 78
Sodium 0
Magnesium 471
Calcium 2595
Barium 0
Phosphorus 1347
Zinc 1594
Molybdenum 66
Titanium 0
Vanadium 0
Potassium 0
Fuel &lt;1
Viscosity 14.21
Water 0%
Soot 0 (%vol)
Glycol neg
"Results of tests performed indicate no corrective action required."

In both cases the Amsoil filter looks to be doing a great job.

Ive come to notice in my oil analysis reports (done by same place as Toddster) that their is no difference in silicon counts between Amsoil and K&N. Not trying to beat a dead horse, but K&N filters do just as good a job as Amsoil based upon my oil analysis. I can post my last 3 if anyone is interested. I go 7,000 miles between oil changes too.

Toddster is running the AFE Magnum Force......

His silicon level is lower......

MAC :eek:

Hi Toddster

I found my report from my last oil change in October. It was also done at HO Penn the results were
Copper 3
Iron 17
Chrome 3
Lead 0
Aluminum 0
Silicon 0
Molybdenum 0
Sodium 5
Calcium 2816
Tin 0
Potassium 0
Magnesium 21
Zinc 942
Water Negative
Fuel Negative
Antifreeze Negative
Soot 34
Oxidation 19
Sulfur Prd 6
Viscosity 13.9

Oil had 10,000 miles on it
Truck had 210,000 miles on it
Oil was Shell Rotella 15W40 Dino
Truck is my Freightliner Tri-Axle Dump Truck
Engine is CAT 3406E 14.7 Liter
550 Horsepower 1,850 Foot Pounds of Stump pulling Torque :D
I wish they would put a CAT motor in a Chevy PU but my new Duramax seems to be working good for now.
Personally I like the Dino oil it seems to be working good for me so far and I'll try it in my Duramax when its time for its first oil change.

IMO oil changes are cheap compared to rebuilding an engine and theres no need to try to stretch out an oil change to the point where you see some adverse effects in the oil reports. 5000 mlies is more than enough miles to change the oil for a PU.
Just my 2 cents

Later Diesel Dragon :cool:

Diesel Dragon- You obviously have excellent maintenance standards. I can't ever remember seeing an oil analysis with zero silicon!