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Srubrn,
I am sure to be one of many that greatly appreciate the efforts you are putting forth on behalf of all.
There is no doubt more than on way to skin this cat.
The point is the deed must be done and you are one of several doing it.
Thanks again for all your effort and information.
-KISMIF
Kimif,
Thanks and your welcome!!
John, I am no expert of fuel filtering but am very familar with hydraulic systems. The larger micron filter is always the first in series to stop the big stuff. We had several systems that uses 2 micron filters. Later! Lone Eagle
[ 02-07-2003: Message edited by: Lone Eagle ]</p>
My comment was not intended to offend anyone. After all, I'm among this group of enthusiastic amateurs. I meant only to point out that John and George are the people here who have the years of experience in this area, and the ones with professional reputations on the line. I, too, appreciate the efforts of srubrn, trace, and the rest. Peace.
Todd off his soapbox- me on mine.
As I said earlier, my fuel filter is working fine as well.
My GTech isn't telling me the truck is any faster or slower but the fuel mileage is getting better almost every week it seems. Now 5400 miles.
I drove 240 miles round trip today up I95 from Daytona north of Jacksonville and back, cruise set, trying to go 80 as often as traffic would allow and my on board computer said 18.4 avg. I have to love this.
My own calcs tell me the computa is pretty close.
I expect that when this filter begins to clog my boost gauge at WOT will fall off and my Gtech will also speak up and tell me hello.
Love the GTech too!!!
If and when this happens I will tell all.
Be it known there is no ego issue here. If I find a problem with my approach I will let you all know. As my yet un-met e-communication friend Todd has said, I sell nothing. I stand to gain nothing.
I spent +40g's for this truck. I will not let a $130, $330, or $530 fuel filter be a issue in my mind.
If JK's filter proves out to be the best solution I will give AMEX a ride on his train.
And for sure- I would not ever try to lead all of you down a rosey path into a pile of crap.
Thank you in advance for reading. [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]
To the moderators-
I just love the way these little icons stick their tongues out and go yyyeeh... ??? you know!
[ 02-07-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>
I'm not going to get into this much more until I get samples from others that back mine up. The one common thing that I have seen with the exception of Greg L's and my samples is an INCREASE in the amount of dirt AND water post separator! :eek:
George sent me some interesting data from a PSD in which the OE setup did a very good job, but the addition of a Dahl system increased the particle count. He has also mentioned recalls on Stanadyne filter elements beyond the one reported by Sruburn (Todd).
BTW, the way that I have this set up, one could plumb either way. Pre or Post OEM. Moving on to engine oil bypass filtration...
[ 02-07-2003: Message edited by: kennedy ]</p>
I plan to get JK’s filter when its ready but I was also still thinking of installing the Dahl 100 (with heater) I already have (once it warms up around here that is). I bought the hose and fittings and was planning to mount it in the same position as Todd’s Stanadyne. The Dahl 100 has a 2-micron nominal (beta 50) cellulose filter and the de-pressureizer cone water separator that’s supposed to remove virtually all water (according to Baldwin). Since the DAHL is not as fine a filter as either the OEM or JK’s , and has a low-pressure drop (.75 inHg), seems like it wouldn’t hurt to have a little more margin. The DAHL is also a very good water separator and would provide some extra defense to a load of bad fuel with more water than the additive can handle. Is this overkill? Any thoughts? [img]smile.gif[/img]
Don't understand the first paragraph in your last post JK. :confused:
This seems to say tests are done pre and post seperator and the element is making more water and dirt.
I am beginning to see some of the logic of a post oem filter although I still favor it being where I have it now. Having said that I acknowledge that these Stan filters we are discussing are widely used in all types of applications as a 'final' filter.
But- for my purpose, the 2-mic filter is the way I chose to go. The goal as I said earlier was ease of maintenence and clean and dry as possible fuel going into the oem systems, including the oem filter. The Stan rep's assurance that I would get decent life from the element was part of my decision.
This Stan filter is a breeze to change compared to the oem and if this has to be done roadside, the replacement element has a drain cock integrated. You don't even have to change the bowl until you are home and ready. We are talking 2 or 3 minutes tops. It doesn't install like the Racor or a typical spin on, it goes up and has a capture sleeve that twists a half turn and click locks. Pretty smart in my view and no tools needed.
I have been poking around under my truck trying to imagine where JK will put that assembly and as one poster already pointed out, there is a spot below and infront of the air box that may be able to accomodate it with some modifications.
Like the rest of you I can't wait to see it installed.
As a side note, after installing my Stanadyne, I left the oem in place about 300 miles, long enough to be sure I didn't have leaks at my flares, etc. I was prepared to fill the interruption in my fuel line with hose and clamps if necessary.
The Stan install went fine so at 5k miles I changed the oem. I have now cut it open and can send pictures to anyone who wants to see them. There was about 1/2 teaspoon of water in the bottom of it (I had never drained it) and no visual residue between the pleats.
I am establishing a baseline to measure the next oem replacement against and time will tell me what the Stan picks up and looks like under the same scrutiny.
More to come...
[img]smile.gif[/img]
[ 02-08-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>
Trace F,
To summarize here:
Johnny C had a bacteria colony so he was counting dead bodies and is not a good test subject.
Sruburn had a defective filter element the first time, and now is looking to see if there may be room for improvement in his sampling technique as the correct filter also yielded a high count. Not sure about the water this time.
Another fellow did a Dahl system install and had a rise in particle count as well. He investigated and first found air (and dirt)leaks into his Dahl mount. Once these were fixed, counts came down a bit, but were still high. I believe the finger is now being pointed at internal leaks in the Dahl. This guy was SO thorough, that he removed and cleaned his tank prior to installing. He is an engineer for a MAJOR auto parts mfr.
I've also seen reference by George to Wix? filters releasing lots of particles when installed new. I guess what I'm trying to say is after seeing all this, I think that I am VERY fortunate to have gotten the results that I did on a freshly machined filter base!!!
Just a word of thanks to John, George, Todd, and Trace and everyone who's contributed to our knowledge for your hard work. I'm just one of the geese in the 'V' honking encouragement to the leaders here. I had to replace the fuel pump on my 97 6.5l TD at 80k and saw what that cost - and that was a relatively low pressure system. I'm very concerned about fuel quality and potential damage to my Dmax fuel system. I'm reading your posts with great anticipation and plan on going with the system that appears to do the best job for us.
Thanks from all of us who stand to benefit from the work of you pioneers. If you ever pass my way, there's a beer (well, OK, more than one) in the fridge in the heated garage for you.
Take Care - Don
Got you now JK- this forum is so long running I have forgotten many of the details. Thanks for clarifying.
Well I have been following this fuel filter problem for quite some time now, months! Has anyone cane up with a fix yet? If so where can I get one installed?
Thanks
Bruce,
There are a couple of solutions but all have not been proven by fuel analysis yet. It should not be long before you have a couple of choices. I have some fuel samples I took today ready to go. If UPS had not lost the last then we would have results on the Stanadyne FM-100. If the results come back positive I am going to send AVLube one sample to qualify the results.
Everybody else,
Stanadyne sent me a case of Stanadyne additive for my troubles. I have used it because it was free. I can tell you that there is a lot more water in the glass bowl at the bottom of the FM-100 with, than without. When I do send a sample to AVLube, we will see the differene in the before fuel filter sample and the after with the additive in relation to water content. George says it will be the same, I think. We'll see!!
Stanadyne has been great with me so far and I have been dealing with one of their engineers and the head guy for Marketing for the whole world.
One more thing. I will be glad when this is over. My wife thinks I have changed my cologne to Ode Le Diesel. For all of you who love the smell. This $h&t stinks.
JK,
Thanks for the info on the DAHL install... I guess I'll put mine on ebay and just wait for your filter...
[img]smile.gif[/img]
Hey Todd-
It was interesting the comments from 56NOMAD back about 20 posts or so. Sounds like you are dealing with someone pretty high up at Stanadyne.
Does he think we are using the right approach?
The Stanadyne tech I spoke to was pretty confident sounding.
It will be interesting to see when one of our filters begins to show some fuel restriction.
Yeah, he said it would work just fine. It only makes sense that a 2 micron filter will get stopped up sooner than a 30 micron filter. I do believe the 2 micron will last long enough. I plan to change mine every oil change anyway. The replacement element is only $12. I have seven filters left. The great news is that your OEM will only have to be changed maybe once a year. It should not be getting very dirty anymore. I am send those newest samples off tommorrow via UPS.
Hello George, John, TraceF and Todd,
Lets assume the worst case with a 2 micron "pre-filter"
It is installed like Trace and Todd have done........ and we
get lazy and don't change the filter regularly and it clogs up.
1. What are the short term and possible long term downsides?
2. What error codes will be thrown when the fuel can't pass this
primary "pre-filter"?
3. By then changing this filter will the error codes be corrected and erased
without having to take it to the dealer?
4. Other than losing power with a clogged fuel filter...is there a chance for
any permanent costly damage down the line of components?
Simple, don't get lazy!!! Change it with your oil filter change!!!
:D come on Todd..... That's how to avoid the problem, but still doesn't
answer my questions. I put the questions out to weigh any possible
downsides to a 2 micron "pre-filter". If in fact the only real issue is
a loss of power when and if this filter should get clogged, then
I think your prototype has a lot of merit for those of us who
are looking at getting this project on our trucks. I really do
appreciate all the work you guys are doing for the benefit of
our members. Thanks.
56NOMAD-
I have no idea the answers to your questions but mackin or JK probably will answer.
Todd's approach is same as mine. I plan to change every 6-7k. The goal is 6 but you know how that goes.
The Stan rep I spoke to said the oem would probably never need to be changed but to do it annually as a precaution based on the 35-40k miles I said I would probably drive.
My plan on this is to do it at 5k (total 10k on the truck) so I can compare it to the first oem I ran 5k without the Stanadyne. I may not see much, the internals of the first one looked pretty good.
After that, every oil change.
[ 02-10-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>
If the filter becomes restricted power will suffer, and an SES light may set.
When the filter gets plugged, (by customer's experience)I have seen (to the best of my recollection) #PO 0070? large fuel leak detected and and #PO 0093? low rail pressure during power enrichment. This, of course is accompanied by a lack/loss of power.
The OE element will run at approx 3-3.5"hg at idle and barely flinch from this number at 3100high idle. I've seen 5"hg at idle rising to 7"+hg. at high idle in a 15k fuel filter!
While eating my peanut butter and jelly sandwich for lunch.....
I was thinking about a fail safe for Trace and Todd's set-up if
it became clogged out on the road or in the boon docks.
Their 2 micron "pre-filter" could be easily set up with a manual
by-pass valve in front of their filters and a tee on the return
side. Should their "pre filter" clog up unexpectedly and/or throw a code,
it would be easy to flip the valve to have the fuel pressure
restored till it is convenient to change out that filter.
Are there any problems with this logic? Once the fuel pressure is
restored will the error codes automatically be removed or do
they have to be reset?
Well thanks for the info on the filter problem. I to appreciate everyones efforts you-all have put a lot of work into solving this problem. If it saves me $ 6,000 down the road I will be eternally grateful. Will be keeping an eye out for the finished product.
Nomad,
If you want to go to all that trouble there would be nothing wrong with putting a tee fitting on the incoming and out going side of the filter and putting a valve on each and also connect a hose between the valves. You would just have to open both if it did stop up. You also could just take a extra filter with you. With the Stanadyne, it requires no tools and it only takes about three minutes to change.
We could "if" this thing to death. We don't even have conclusive evidence back yet to say that the Stanadyne filter will filter at 2 micron at 95% efficiency yet.
As far as the codes are concerned, I think they would clear up by themselves.
I sent two samples to the lab today. They should get them by weeks end. Next week we should know something be it good or bad. That is if UPS don't lose my samples again.
Todd,
Me thinks you would only need one diverter valve and one tee to make it work.
We'll still wait till all the results come in and
JK can get into production. Thanks again.
[ 02-10-2003: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]</p>
56-
Todd's point that the filter is a 3 minute change is valid. Neat thing about it is no tools.
The filter slides up over a nipple and a slip ring goes up over the filter, makes a quarter turn, and click locks.
Works good. I assembled mine when I got it and it worked so well I had to bolt it to something to un-click it.
What about the fuel that sits in the bypass hose for a long time - would it not be prone to algae/bacteria problems? More connections to leak and possible sources of contamination...
Why all this discussion with Racor, Dahl, Stanadyne, and Cat.
Did anyone talk to BOSCH who IIRC made the Dura-Max fuel injection system to get their thoughts on the topic?
Just a thought ;)
Carey
Bet they'd say the cleaner the fuel the better :D
Hey Bosch rep. What do you think?
Well; Uhh; Hmm; err; Lets see; Why don't you leave me your number. :confused:
This just about sums up the answer I got, and no returned call.
[ 02-10-2003: Message edited by: a bear ]
[ 02-12-2003: Message edited by: a bear ]</p>
TDP probably has 500 new members since George Morrison
started this string of posts regarding the fuel filtration issues
in Oct 2002.
There is a lot of good information here and it was getting buried,
so I thought I'd be a butt and bring it back to the to the top........... :eek:
Racor-
Please state your occupation.
Are you a Racor representative?
It would be nice to have some direct from mfr info posted we could use in our assessments.
Welcome.
To edit, check the icons by the date and time of your message.
[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: TraceF ]</p>
Racor: ^^^^^^^^^^
to edit click on the pencil on the posted date line at the start of top of the message. There are 3 icons there the last one is edit.
[img]smile.gif[/img]
[ 03-07-2003: Message edited by: ccds ]</p>
It's going to take awhile to read and catch up on this topic, but I think I can join in and clear up some misconceptions about this subject.
1. All DMAX filters are made by Racor. Period.
2. All DMAX filters have Aquabloc media rated
at four (4) microns at 98% efficiency or
better.
3. DMAX filters exceed Bosch's specs. (We talk to Bosch on this subject) They remove 100% of free water.
However, don't expect diesel fuel quality to be the same as gasoline quality. There is always the chance that you will get a tankful of water and sediment laden fuel. If that happens, your're going to have a bad day, and no filter is going to save you.
You can minimize the the risk:
1. by adding a 10 micron pre-filter ahead of the Racor DMAX.
2. Pay attention to the water-in-fuel light. Drain the filter ASAP.(Suspect a bad load of fuel)
3. Change your filter at 15,000 miles or less. Don't push it. Water removal degrades as the filter plugs. (A pre-filter will help a lot to get you to 15,000 miles safely)
4. Always be aware of the quality of your fuel. Check your used filters for water, bacteria slime, and oily residue. Good fuel at 15,000 miles should leave a filter light brown/black with very little residue thickness.
That's all today.
I have had several hats at Racor. I was the R&D lab supervisor starting in 1986, and started working as a sales engineer for Japanese market products in 1990. I've worked directly with Isuzu R&D Japan since about 1997. I project managed the the DMAX filter through the first prototypes and testing in 1998~2000.
Assuming you're credible I for one am glad to have you on-board. When you get through the whole thread begin dispelling the myths and rumors.
Thanks... in advance.
After reading the entire thread, I decided to just write a few paragraphs covering some of the areas that were discussed:
ON THE PARTICLE REMOVAL EFFICIENCY OF THE OEM FILTER:
Accurate on-truck fuel sampling is nearly impossible. Particles settle into every fuel system crevice and stick to hose walls. Moving a hose or opening a valve to take a sample will dislodge thousands of particles in a series of unpredictable blasts. You
Racor- we have a forum member here who will soon be contacting you to arrange shipment of the DP flame proof suit you will need to deflect all of the controversy that this post will certainly generate.
Thank you for the well written summary of the oem filtering system.
Please allow me a few questions:
1) There seems to be a consensus that a "gunk" develops on the injectors that causes early failure as a result of poor filtration. Is this a result of the filter change interval being too long?
2) There seems to be a consensus that the high pressure fuel system is "sandblasting" the injectors to death because the oem filter is letting too much contamination pass. Myth?
3) You seem to support that no additives are needed which I think I read is also GM's position. Am I correct on this conclusion?
4) The "black" portion of the filter has been described as "dead carcasses" of microbes decaying. Myth?
5) You mention that "Both the OEM and aftermarket DMAX fuel filters exceed Bosch
Today is just a good day to reply. I can't keep up with this and do my job too!
1) There seems to be a consensus that a "gunk" develops on the injectors that causes early failure as a result of poor filtration. Is this a result of the filter change interval being too long?
"Gunk" probably has more to do with hot diesel fuel. Heat up diesel fuel and it turns to tar. That can't be filtered. It's a better question for the fuel refineries.
2) There seems to be a consensus that the high pressure fuel system is "sandblasting" the injectors to death because the oem filter is letting too much contamination pass. Myth?
Good question. That's for Bosch to answer. If that is happening, I know the filter is not implicated.
3) You seem to support that no additives are needed which I think I read is also GM's position. Am I correct on this conclusion?
I don't support additives that contain alcohol of any type. Also, biocides are for keeping a clean tank clean, not dousing a load of bacteria to death.
4) The "black" portion of the filter has been described as "dead carcasses" of microbes decaying. Myth?
If the black stuff is wet, then it might be microbes. More likely it's just plain old asphaltines(like disolved tar). You can't avoid them; they are part of the fuel.
5) You mention that "Both the OEM and aftermarket DMAX fuel filters exceed Bosch