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I just had a guy call me that is thinking of buying a new Dmax. He has been hearing from so called reliable sources that there are a lot of injectors problems after 100K. He was told the injectors are $6K and $2700 to install them. Does anyone have first hand info on the prices? I understand there are some after market injectors available also. Later! Lone Eagle
I believe a new set of injectors is more like $4000 or less.
Still ridiculous and a good reason to dump the truck before the warranty on the engine is up.
Lone Eagle, Would you shoot me an e-mail?
Thanks, Burner--------> :D
WOW !!!!!!Quote:
Originally posted by hoot:
Still ridiculous and a good reason to dump the truck before the warranty on the engine is up.
You didn't say that did you Hoot ??? What a "Pandora's Box" .....
My belief is that the aftermarket will make a showing in addition cost of Bosch injectors will settle,just like everything else "IF" needed ..... More rumors ??? You be the judge .....What is the life expectancy of a high pressure diesel injector ??
Mac http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbt...lins/shrug.gif
[ 07-23-2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: mackin ]
WOW !!!!!!Quote:
Originally posted by mackin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by hoot:
Still ridiculous and a good reason to dump the truck before the warranty on the engine is up.
You didn't say that did you Hoot ??? What a "Pandora's Box" .....
My belief is that the aftermarket will make a showing in addition cost of Bosch injectors will settle,just like everything else "IF" needed ..... More rumors ??? You be the judge .....What is the life expectancy of a high pressure diesel injector ??
Mac http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbt...lins/shrug.gif </font>[/QUOTE]MAC,
We are moving into the 4th model year. I feel bad for anyone that has had to fork up thousands for injectors after the warranty is just finished.
Doesn't "Dura" mean durable? GM needs to be real careful or the injector failure/cost issue could damage their reputation even more. I see no reason an engine that costs this much should have us worrying if our injectors will last past 100,000 and if we should be saving up for it.
The reason I say dump before 100,000 is if this does turn out to be the case than resale on these trucks will plummet especially on trucks approaching 100,000 miles.
[ 07-23-2003, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: hoot ]
I agree. I for one have concerns. I had intentions of running this truck well past 100M, that's one of the reasons I bought it. Now....just not sure. Just to much chatter about this to suit me.
If anyone has their pants in a bunch over it there is always an extended warranty ..... Any part is subject to fail sooner then later .....
GM isn't Bosch ..... Bosch R&D the system ..... Cummins has switched to a similar application ..... Why ??? Federal emission standards the same individuals that set diesel fuel standards well below European standards where the Bosch system has been very successful ....
GM has made changes, from what I've seen to make access for repairs easier therefore cost effective ..... Your quoting dealer prices for injectors ..... A set of Diesel Dynamics don't cost what your stating .... I feel sources will become available.... At one time not to long ago the Allison was thought to take whatever could be thrown at it,Dura ...... ;)
Where are all the out of warranty thousands ??? Where's Broker, http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif
Guess I'm just not a worry wart, and have faith ..... VCR use to cost 700 bucks, too ......
Mac ;)
[ 07-23-2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: mackin ]
He he, I think Broker only knows trailers. Ask him what trailer to buy and he'll answer in a heartbeat.
We buy diesel because we think they are tough engines. We pay big bucks and expect GM to back these engines. I don't like the idea of one injector going at a time. Can you say about $1500 x 8?
GM used Stanadyne in the 6.5 which is a reputable company but the worst nightmare occurred and GM left many many people out in the cold with junk. Not until like the end of the 6.5 run did GM come out and extend the injection pump warranty to 110,000 miles. Big whip.
GM has done it before. If this ends up being a real problem, they could very well do it again judging by how they treated the 6.5 customers.
The real problem right now is we are just now seeing significant Dmax owners surpassing 100,000 miles. At this point there aren't enough issues on this page to worry me that much. If one of mine goes before warranty is up..... she's gone. If I have it that long as it is. I'll take that as a sign of the future.
I love this truck. She has been really good to me so far. I haven't had a problem in probably a year and even then only minor things that were fixed first time.
Who knows..... maybe a 2004 GMC in my future? Maybe a Cummins? Ford 6.0 is not in the running. That engine makes ours look like the cats meow.
[ 07-23-2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: hoot ]
injectors can be had for 300.00 each and labor to replace all 8 would be about 800.00 or around 10-12 hours. list on injectors is higher, it just depends on who you know ;)
It would be interesting to know how many people here with injector problems (or any other engine/trans prolems) have played by the rules and never modified their engine control systems, and how many have. Can a correlation be made? This would be extremely valuable information that would help new owners make decisions about power products and truck modifications.
MP
careful MP lots of vendors here sell those modifications :D .........one injector @ 45k (return problem) modifications yes, problem as a result of no, I really don't think so......but???? :D dave
I just heard it from a reputable source that they can be re-built for considerably less than $100 a piece. Of course even if they were free there still a PITA to R&R. Maybe the 04 fixes the pain to R&R. If so it would be a good reason to wait for the late model 04 as opposed to an early model 04.
If a correlation can be made, that info needs to be made available. Risk assessment is a normal part of life.
If a correlation can be made, people need to take more responsibility for their own actions.
MP
I would lean towards the fuel being the problem, not truck modifications. My nephew has driven semis for years. Says the company is having allot of injector issues. He thinks it's fuel related. I've been using additivies for several months, but really have no solid facts to say this will help.
I agree with Dave. I don't see any correlation between boxes and injector failure. The boxes only change injector pulse width or timing. The injector is merely a plunger attached to a solenoid, it doesn't know or care what the pulse width or timing is.
If the electrical solenoid part was failing on all 8 injectors due to the duty cycle being too high, I could see blaming the boxes. The key here is: how many injectors are failing on the vehicle. All 8 would indicate they are being operated outside of their design/capabilities. One or 2 scattered here and there would indicate poor Q.A.
The injectors are failing mechanically. This indicates to me the following possibilities:
1. Bosch is demanding too much from the type of metal that they're using and it is wearing out prematurely.
2. Bosch may have discovered their error and made running changes to the injectors without telling anyone. I could believe this, after the tobacco co.s, Enron, Andersen Consulting, et al. I don't trust any major corp. to tell the truth or even act in an ethical manner with regards to the public.
3. The fuel cleanliness required to operate at these pressures is not being met by the petroleum nor by the factory filter. George Morrison proved this well enough to satisfy me.
4. The fuel rails from an outside supplier may have been improperly stored before assy., causing corrosion to occur inside them and allowing rust particles to reach the injectors, since they are after the fuel filter.
5. Any combination of the above.
Let's hear from some other members: anybody have an injector fail on a totally stock Dmax? Are there any totally stock Dmaxes out there? ;)
Regards, Steve
I heard mid two's ..... Now you know why I'm not running to jump ship,or should I say that worried "if" a failure should occur ..... ;)Quote:
Originally posted by dmaxalliTech:
injectors can be had for 300.00 each and labor to replace all 8 would be about 800.00 or around 10-12 hours. list on injectors is higher, it just depends on who you know ;)
Just think in a few more months ......
Mac :D :D :D
Hoot ,what's up 3yr itch.....
http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbt...lins/shrug.gif
[ 07-23-2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: mackin ]
I have had 3 injector cup seal failures and 2 injector failures all before my mod happy ways took over. The only thing done at the time of failure was the exhaust.
2002 D/A - totally stock - 45,000 miles - daily driver and work truck - tows a big load with the best of them - have had some knocking problems, but none diagnosed as an injector.
MP wrote:
Excellent idea and lets continue to encourageQuote:
It would be interesting to know how many people here with injector problems (or any other engine/trans prolems) have played by the rules and never modified their engine control systems, and how many have. Can a correlation be made? This would be extremely valuable information that would help new owners make decisions about power products and truck modifications.
the high mileage lurkers to post on their experiences.
Maybe a clever computer person could put a
page together where we could self enter our mileage, modifications and service issues.
This page could be accessed by TDP members..........
In a moment of weakness :D :D I almost purchased the Juice, however, the reality is
that this truck has as much power as I need
for daily driver and my towing needs. The only
modification was the addition of my secondary
fuel filtration. I'm at 28,000 miles and my engine just
purrs.........
[ 07-23-2003, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: 56Nomad ]
Excellent idea and lets continue to encourageQuote:
Originally posted by 56Nomad:
MP wrote:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> It would be interesting to know how many people here with injector problems (or any other engine/trans prolems) have played by the rules and never modified their engine control systems, and how many have. Can a correlation be made? This would be extremely valuable information that would help new owners make decisions about power products and truck modifications.
the high mileage lurkers to post on their experiences.
Maybe a clever computer person could put a
page together where we could self enter our mileage, modifications and service issues.
This page could be accessed by TDP members.......... </font>[/QUOTE]Are you suggesting a secret place to air our dirty laundry ??
Mac http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbt...ins/phoney.gif
Yep.... clean laundry too.Quote:
Are you suggesting a secret place to air our dirty laundry ??
MACKIN, mid 2's is likely if your a good customer ;)
I can speek first hand about this subject bacause a majority of the trucks we service are bone stock. I have seen numerous failures of injectors, not an alarming number but have seen them, There is a chevy dealer next to us and I frequently speak to thier diesel guy (he is good) he sees plenty also. I am not an expert on performance mods so I dont know for sure, but I havent seen any first hand failures that can be attributed to power adders. Most of the failures I am aware off are leaks, both through the body and the pintle. The jury is out on whether boxes contribute to failure as far as I am concerned...
Back to MP reply, I agree it would be interesting to tell, but I dont know how accuratly you could tell/ contribute the failure to the performance mod.
JK and I have discussed injectors on many occasions and have agreed that 'reman' injectors may suffer some quality issues unless they have replaced all mechanical parts, minute wear can effect flow rates and even new injectors have a large varience in flow rates...It would also be interestin to know the warr on an aftermarket injector..
If the resale will dump at 100k, I am interested in anothe truck :D
First, let me say that I believe that most types of failures, whether they be fuel system related or drivetrain related, are more likely to occur on modified trucks. Is this coincidence? Is there a correlation? We may never know with certainty unless we see the data - unless people with problem trucks say whether their trucks are (or have been) modified.
Second, everyone can post here on this BB without anyone knowing who you are unless you used your real name in your forum handle, or you posted personally identifiable information in a posted message.
I think it's a fair question to ask anyone who reports an injector (or any other component) failure whether they modified their truck.
MP
if they will tell...... I hope they do. [img]smile.gif[/img]Quote:
Originally posted by More Power:
First, let me say that I believe that most types of failures, whether they be fuel system related or drivetrain related, are more likely to occur on modified trucks. Is this coincidence? Is there a correlation? We may never know with certainty unless we see the data - unless people with problem trucks say whether their trucks are (or have been) modified.
Second, everyone can post here on this BB without anyone knowing who you are unless you used your real name in your forum handle, or you posted personally identifiable information in a posted message.
I think it's a fair question to ask anyone who reports an injector (or any other component) failure whether they modified their truck.
MP
While there is some potential for increased risk with pressure type boxes, I think thatthere is little/no connection with pulse type boxes.
I have 45k on mine, and haven't necessarily been easy on it. I have almost NEVER operated without a box of some type installed, and haven't had injector problems. I DO run an emulsifying additive in every tank, and have had auxillary filtration on my fuel system for the past 15k. Many of the people that I have talked to with injector problems are NOT running boxes, and many of those who are, continue to do so and once "out of the woods" (seems that there is a lot of recurrence until all are changed) they seem to be trouble free. I have a customer in NC that had repeated injector failures, and now (knock on wood) since installing my filter hasn't had any grief.
It has also been my undocumented observation that ther is a greater tendency for injector related issues to be associated with 2001 models.
45k on mine and my engine oil is dramatically cleaner at 7k sampling than 99% of the fuel after the OE Racor filter! :eek:
I can't even give my truck away. Nobody's interested. At 122,000 miles, it is relativly low miles for diesel. What to do. :(Quote:
If the resale will dump at 100k, I am interested in anothe truck
More Power,
I agree any modifications to power output could effect component durability. And yes it's almost impossible to see the whole picture.
Unfortunately GM had the head redesign in it's plans not long after or even during the introduction of this engine. Kinda makes you wonder if they knew there would be issues early on but it was too late to do anything about it at the time.
As the techs who see these trucks everyday are saying, it is not a rare occurrance for injectors to go bad. There is also talk about a second generation injector with harder internals. Now the 04 is finally getting the new heads to allow easier service.
No doubt in my mind GM is well aware and has been for a long time that there are fuel/injector problems. My honest opinion is the higher pressures and dirty fuels are the culprit.
All I want is GM to take the load off my mind and tell me it won't cost me anything for the projected 200,000 mile life.
Now here's the kicker....
Diesel pickups are not any more cost effective than a comparably powered gas truck. Payback typically hits around 100,000 miles. If this engine becomes a liability at that mileage, what's the advantage? We payed big bucks for the option only to see no real advantage.
It does sound cool and I really like the turbo whine :D
One dealer in the area has been replacing pumps and injectors on a number of trucks. Make me feel good :( On the other hand I worked in the GM store for 4 years and at F**d store now for 2 years and I can say that I have seen as many if not more 7.3PS injectors changed than 6.5 pumps. I know I am comparing apples, oranges and grapes here but it make me wonder.
I have 64000km (40000k) on my truck (stock), run addative from day 1 driven hard every day, too date no engine related problems.
Of cource now that I said that??
140,000 miles and bone stock except for the K&N air filter. First injector went at about 117,000m. Next around 124,000m and the last about 135,000m. Today the last dealer that put an injector in, Budd Baer - Washington, Pa., spent 5 hours changing a single valve cover gasket. NO CHARGE.
GM says to reuse the inner gasket. Penny wise and pound foolish can describe that. Mine split on the underside and it was hard to see the tear. Leaked oil all over. The '04 engine has the changes to stop this silly waste of time and expense with these injectors.
My repairs have totalled about $2,900 for the injectors and down-time was about 7 full days.
THESE HAVE BEEN THE ONLY REPAIRS EVER.
Truck still has original brakes, suspension, 3rd set of tires etc. I change the fluids myself and just run it. If it weren't for the injectors the truck would be PERFECT.
My point exactly .... If info were to be gathered on actual Proven Injector failure, the diss allotment for miss diagnostics would prevail IMO ...Quote:
Originally posted by drgracr:
One dealer in the area has been replacing pumps and injectors on a number of trucks. Make me feel good :( On the other hand I worked in the GM store for 4 years and at F**d store now for 2 years and I can say that I have seen as many if not more 7.3PS injectors changed than 6.5 pumps. I know I am comparing apples, oranges and grapes here but it make me wonder.
I have 64000km (40000k) on my truck (stock), run addative from day 1 driven hard every day, too date no engine related problems.
Of cource now that I said that??
How many trannys were replaced for nothing ??? I can assure you tons ..... Three at my participating, for COLD operating issues ..... Gimme a break, lack of training on real service issues ..... We are gonna base the statistics on that
??
Give it some time ,Lets be realistic here on this,to many variables for true data ......
Mac
Let me get this straight, an otherwise perfect truck with around 100K miles has to be dumped because it might cost you $2500-$4000 for new injectors with labor.
Let me run out and spend $45K-$50K on a brand new truck, finance it again and then make a few more years of payments :confused: , just because it might fail.
For me, I am not worried. As MACKIN said, prices will come down and stabilize. I do not believe that bombing a truck has any bearing on injector failures, unless as Kennedy said you are using a pressure box.
If bombing a truck is the suspected cause then why are we hearing about stock trucks with injectors failing? and I don't think it's as many as we might think.
I believe that any mass produced part or humanly assembled component has a chance for a failure at any time. If we expect everything to last forever we are living in WONDERLAND :eek: .
I buy fuel from a reliable station, I don't filter it with a secondary, but filter if you wish.
I Don't sweat the small stuff.
GMC :D
I need a NAP :eek:
I have heard from reliable sources that over half of the tranny's that were returned for warr issues were not bad
GMC-2002-Dmax wrote:
Now if you live in California, the already expensive registration feesQuote:
Let me get this straight, an otherwise perfect truck with around 100K
miles has to be dumped because it might cost you $2500-$4000 for
new injectors with labor. Let me run out and spend $45K-$50K on a
brand new truck, finance it again and then make a few more years
of payments, just because it might fail.
has been tripled because the State is 38 billion $ in debt. I wonder
what that amount would be for a new $45,000 truck? Sales tax
alone would be over $3500 What a rip off :(
Basically you can call it a no win situation. I would think a gasser at probably 5 to 7 thousand dollars less will be less likely to incur 2-3000 dollar repair bill at 100,000 miles. Get what I'm saying?Quote:
Originally posted by GMC-2002-Dmax:
Let me get this straight, an otherwise perfect truck with around 100K miles has to be dumped because it might cost you $2500-$4000 for new injectors with labor.
Let me run out and spend $45K-$50K on a brand new truck, finance it again and then make a few more years of payments :confused: , just because it might fail.
For me, I am not worried. As MACKIN said, prices will come down and stabilize. I do not believe that bombing a truck has any bearing on injector failures, unless as Kennedy said you are using a pressure box.
If bombing a truck is the suspected cause then why are we hearing about stock trucks with injectors failing? and I don't think it's as many as we might think.
I believe that any mass produced part or humanly assembled component has a chance for a failure at any time. If we expect everything to last forever we are living in WONDERLAND :eek: .
I buy fuel from a reliable station, I don't filter it with a secondary, but filter if you wish.
I Don't sweat the small stuff.
GMC :D
I need a NAP :eek:
Two comparible trucks except one is gas the other diesel. At 100,000 miles, which one cost more? Probably the same after fuel efficiency is factored in.... maybe not.
Now look at both trucks after 100,000 miles. As long as the injection system in the diesel holds up for 200,000 miles, the diesel wins. If not.... what's the point in owning a diesel if you break down and put out 2-3000 dollars? What do we do, as soon as one goes, replace them all? At our expense?
GMC-2002-Dmax,
Your point about buying new again is true.... but the difference is, I would have a new truck while you'll not only be breaking down who knows where, you'll be forking out big $$ and hoping whoever fixes it knows what they're doing.
You see I drive 40 miles to work each day (80 total) on a busy highway. I won't put up with injectors going bad while driving to work.
Look at Captain Mal.... out on vacation or whatever and she breaks down. Hey I can handle a breakdown every now and then but not one that I know will likely occur after 100,000 miles.
All this only if this really is a big issue.
Hoot...... you fret too much ;)
Nah it's peer pressure ...Looking for a reason to bail and get a straight axle Ford ..... [img]tongue.gif[/img]Quote:
Originally posted by 56Nomad:
Hoot...... you fret too much ;)
Hoot wroteAt the procrastinating failure rate your projecting, everyone and their brother will have hands on ..... Gonna worry yourself right to a new Ford aren't ya ???Quote:
I would have a new truck while you'll not only be breaking down who knows where, you'll be forking out big $$ and hoping whoever fixes it knows what they're doing.
Mac http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif http://www.turbodieselregister.com/ubb/hihi.gif
Hoot sees a conspiracy behind everything. This web site, GM, you name it.
A couple of observations.... Sure a dealer tech will see the problems. How many Duramax owner reported problems does a single dealer tech come into contact relative to the admin & mods here at TDP? How many people without problems report that fact, relative to those who do? And, as was mentioned above, how many dealer techs have replaced perfectly good component parts? I could relate a couple disastrous service stories, as reported to me by other members, that caused a cascade of failures.
Lastly, as more trucks go out of warranty, and demand for replacement parts grows, the aftermarket will fill that void with less expensive and high-quality parts. Just like we did for the 6.2/6.5, we'll also produce a user guide showing how to perform most Duramax related service procedures. In the end, out-of warranty Duramax 6600 service costs will be cut in half or more.
In the meantime, maybe this will help......
http://www.thedieselpage.com/images/6600injectors.jpg
MP
Nah it's peer pressure ...Looking for a reason to bail and get a straight axle Ford ..... [img]tongue.gif[/img]Quote:
Originally posted by mackin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 56Nomad:
Hoot...... you fret too much ;)
Hoot wroteAt the procrastinating failure rate your projecting, everyone and their brother will have hands on ..... Gonna worry yourself right to a new Ford aren't ya ???Quote:
I would have a new truck while you'll not only be breaking down who knows where, you'll be forking out big $$ and hoping whoever fixes it knows what they're doing.
Mac </font>[/QUOTE]MAC,
How dare you accuse me of thinking about a Ford :mad: ;)
I've had really great luck with my GM trucks. Here's my testimony....
1989 K1500 350 GAS 60,000 miles
1989 K1500 350 GAS 30,000 miles
1993 K2500 6.5 TD 18,500 miles
1997 K2500 6.5 TD 80,000 miles
2001 2500HD 6.6 TD 57,000 miles
All of the above trucks never broke down on the road, not even once. I got first GM truck in 1990, the 89 K1500. I have't taken one over 100,000 in my life as you can see. The first two were used when I got them.
Straight axle doesn't "steer" me. My preferences are no breakdowns and full crew cab and 4X4. Right now GM is the ONLY choice.
More Power Says:
"Hoot sees a conspiracy behind everything. This web site, GM, you name it."
Maybe so Jim. Like the conspiracy that this site/forum was being compromised by who nose who so we weren't allowed to have anything but straight text for three freekin years. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
You've had nothing but good luck with AC Delco batteries but the fact is.... they suck.
Injection failures are occurring at a relatively high rate, is that a fact?
GM started redesigning the heads for easier injector replacement in late 2000/early 2001. I'm not calling that a GM conspiracy, just saying maybe they new something we didn't. All I ask is that they stand by their product if they are to to blame. OK I'm sorry, the warranty is 100,000 miles. Guess what.... I have nothing to worry about. It'll probably be gone by then. I'd rather put the loss into a new rig... probably another GM.
How about the 6.5 TD injection pump nightmare. Don't you think GM could have done a few things differently? Or was there money to be saved at the customers expense.
Don't go blowing this up like I'm dead set on unloading my truck anytime soon. Sure we need to wait. The question is will the real truth surface here anytime soon?
Do I need a secondary fuel filter?
Flame on boys.
BTW:
How much for a whole box...?
http://www.thedieselpage.com/images/6600injectors.jpg
[ 07-24-2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: hoot ]
Oh Oh --
Did I hear Mac whisper a new handle for Hoot?
FO hoot RD ?? http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/lach.gif Mabye just wind in the trees?
Sorry Hoot http://www.handykult.de/plaudersmilies.de/knuddel.gif
Bob
Hoot said: Injection failures are occurring at a relatively high rate, is that a fact?
Define "relatively high rate". Where's your data to support your definition?
Hoot said: How about the 6.5 TD injection pump nightmare. Don't you think GM could have done a few things differently?
Yes, I agree, it was a poorly designed fuel injection pump. I chose to be constructively engaged in helping solve problems, and we've written extensively about the pump's deficiencies and provided information designed to reduce failures. Whining wouldn't help anyone.
Hoot said: The question is will the real truth surface here anytime soon?
You'd just think it was part of another conspiracy...... Just like when I explained the "real truth" to you about the image/link issue here in the BB. [img]tongue.gif[/img]
MP
[ 07-24-2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: More Power ]