Oil Analysis

I changed oil in my brothers D/A last week; he had 23600 miles on the oil. I thought it was overdue to say the least, so I took an oil sample and sent it in to see how bad the oil was and if there was any damage to the engine. I got the oil sample back today and to my surprise it said no corrective action required oil is suitable for continued use.
With the above and other oil sample I have sent in on different vehicle, I'm convinced that it is safe to run oil longer than what the oil co. and car manufacturers recommend. I think they have us all brain washed with their recommendation and commercials. I remember the 3000-mile oil change was recommended long before I started to drive several moons ago. Seems to me it's pretty pathetic that they (oil co) are saying they haven't improved their products in that many years. That goes for the engines and air filters also. If we can safely run oil for 10000, 20000, or even 30000 miles why don't we. I know why; it would cut in to the big oil co bottom line, so they make sure they scare the h%$l out of us so we keep using there oil. Just think we could cut down on our dependence on foreign countries and save the environment from gallons and gallons of used oil, and save money in the process. That

And The Wheels On The Bus Go Round And Round .........Round And Round .... Round And Round........
And The Wheels On The Bus Go Round And Round.....
All ,Day ,long ..............


That's a lotta of miles . What kind of oil?


:D :D :D [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D :D :D

MAC

[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

You are probably right.

BUT____After so many years of being brainwashed it is hard for us common folk to get over the mental image of our vehicles seizing up from not changing the oil every 3000 miles...just a big mental hurdle.

Amsoil 5W30 heavy duty diesel.

Zap
Thanks for the post and comments. I have been trying hard to get people to do this. Some have and some never will. The 5W-30 is good stuff and about 75% of my Dmax customers are on it. Does he do any heavy towing?
Greg

GM doesn't recommend that viscosity do they? Will in the warm months anyway ......... I'm running AMSOIL so I'm not looking to be sold on it ....... Thinking about switching to that viscosity this winter although ...... How are the PSI readings ?.......

MAC :D

Greg, he is a contractor and does tow with it allot, usually short trips 20-50 miles. I'm not sure what the tow weight would be either, I'm guessing in the 10,000lb range.

Mackin, I checked with Amsoil and they recommend there 5W30 said it was there best diesel oil. I also researched it with others, they explained that 5W30 will get rid of heat quicker than a 15W40, diesels run cooler, and the Amsoil will not loose its viscosity anywhere near as fast as most conventional 15W40 weight oils do. The 5W30 will also give easier starts in cold weather supposedly better mileage and most importantly will flow through the engine much quicker on start up there-by protecting the engine quicker. From what I've learned most wear comes from start up and not from oil with a light viscosity and the 30 weight is not that far from a 40 weight.

I sent my oil out for analyzation. Results are as follows
Iron-24
Chromium-1
Lead-13
Copper-44 ====
Tin-9
Aluminum-3
Nickel-1
Silver-2
Silicon-29 _ _ _
Boron-7
Sodium-7
Potassium-3
Magnesium-67
Calcium3117
Phosphorous-1498
Zinc-1443
Molybdenum-1
Fuel-A
Water-less than .1%
Glycol-no
visc. 100c-14.1

LEGEND:
==== symbol means "caution"
- - - symbol means "slightly above normal"


It also says "copper high indicating possible bearing or thrust wear. Copper may also be from cooler dirt level being slightly above normal."

"Change oil and filter if not already done."

The oil is Amsoil 15-40 Diesel oil. Started using Amsoil at the first 500 mile change. Baldwin filter. This oil had 4000 miles on it.

What are your thoughts on the copper and silicon levels?? Anything to worry about? Thanks in advance. :D

How many total miles? I am assuming 4500? The silicon starts high then drops. Mine went from 68 to 8 over the course of 4 fills and has stabilized. I am curious as to whether we can drop this in 4 fills in 1000 miles (frequent dumps) or if it is more of a time release thing where it works loose. Had it not been for the high silicon, I would have changed to the Amsoil sooner myself. From 25 miles if it were practical...

Every Dmax (and 6.5 for that matter) oil sample that I have seen starts high on copper then gradually drops. I attribute this to wrist pin bushings as the likely source. Just breaking in IMHO.

Your numbers look correct. As the diesel gurus here suggest the first several oil changes should be around 500mi and then maybe 1000mi. So one might want to wait on the pricey synthetics till the engine dirt is flushed out. ;)

I've been running the 5w30 for some time now. It was hard to bring myself to do it, but analysis says all is well!

Oil (petro) is quite inexpensive insurance. I will likely NOT run the 5w30 past 10k, but at 6k, it is looking excellent at &lt;.1% soot!

Consumption is nil at MAYBE 1 pint per 4,000 miles of hauling ass!

Kennedy sez- quote- "Consumption is nil at MAYBE 1 pint per 4,000 miles of hauling ass!"

That's excellent oil mileage considering how John drives.... [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D


:cool:

I've started running my Delo 15w-40 Dino to 4K miles now... No gain in soot levels (still under .1%), so the next change is going to 5K, and if the tests show good, I'm going for 6K. Of course, then it'll be close to winter, then it's 5w-30 Amsoil time.... I'll run 5w-30 in the winter, and 15w-40 in the summer. I can't stand running the thin oil in summer. Call me old fashioned or narrow minded, but it just bugs me. ;)

These numbers pretty much mirror my numbers. I don't have the sheet handy, otherwise I'd post them.

You'll see a decline in copper content as the engine breaks in. You'll also see a drop in the silicon levels as the engine "cleans" itself, unless you install a K&N, then the silicon levels will stay somewhat high (15-16 PPM). With an Amsoil filter, my silicon levels are around 4 or 5 PPM in 4,000 miles. With the K&N, my silicon levels were hanging around 15-16 in 3,000 miles.

The truck has 9500 total miles now. I changed as follows in miles.
8-500-factory oil
501-5000-Amsoil
5001-9000-Amsoil-this was the oil sent for analysis.
I am curious to see what interval I can change the oil in. Based on what I've read from the board and what was just replied it seems initially until the truck is fully broken in that shorter milage oil changes would be better. Once the copper and silicon levels drop I want to try and go 6000 or so and see what happens. Does this sound about right? Changing Amsoil every 4000 gets a bit pricey. I could maybe save 1 change a year by letting the oil go a couple more thousand. I plan to drop the oil at 13000 and see what happens. Thanks :D

[ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: TURBOJOE ]</p>

I agree with Kennedy,
All appears Normal, The Cu is probably wrist pin and thrust. As for the Silicon, I have usually attributed that to valve springs and it subsides. I have not analyzed my Dmax oil and most likely will not but this is what I get from the race motors when Kendall analyzes my motor oil.

I would recommend an oil and filter change then Relax :D and drive that thing. Remember this, analyzing things is fun but can add extra grief to a daily driven vehicle. I have personally found that I would change synthetic oil around 10K -12K miles regardless but people will argue this point saying with proper analyzing techniques you can get 20K or more. However unless you have tons of time and are trying to get every last mile out of 10 qts of oil I think the ROE (Return on Effort) for the general consumer is marginal at best. Plus all the stress of seeing a slightly high reading of something that could or could not be a problem.

My.02 worth...

on Edit, Hey Turbojoe, saw you have a 10.5 car in your signature. I run in an Heads Up 12.5 wide max ET Street tire class. What's your car run? What's your weapon of choice in regards to power adders? Always like to chat racing...

[ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: 01_Duramax_Dually ]</p>

By 10,000 miles and this many changes I would assume the dirt would have been flushed and lower. From the Duramaxes I have seen at 10,000 miles, this has been the case. My own Duramax, for example, at 4500 miles is showing a 12 silicon, with corresponding single digit copper.
Given the relatively high reported dirt, a close examination of the induction system would be in order and that the air filter is clean, well seated. And changed, if need be. If the air filter is dirty, the engine WILL find a way to get air, unfiltered, of course. (hopefully this truck is not K&N'd.)
George Morrison, STLE CLS

I'll post and compare at next change. Thanks for everyone's input.

01-D-MAX-Dually, the 69 is just about done. I had a ladder bar and coilovers put along with an anti roll control for the body roll.

The 525' is just getting freshened up and dynoed. It should make 850 or so. I haven't run the car yet, I just bought it over the winter. I am planning on running Pro Stock in the Edelbrock Pro deal. Here's a link to the class I want to run in.http://www.fasteststreetcar.com/prostock.html.
I don't think I'll be done for the first event. I like the NA classes and if it doesn't work out, SPRAY IT. As far as power adders goes, that's a tuff one.

I have used N2O on previous cars with great results and I have already put a fogger on my manifold for this car when I get it sorted out. I still say for a carbed car, it's the best bang for the buck.

Superchargers are definately making some power but I really haven't given them a good looking at. Procharger is doing some impressive stuff though.

Turbos, I think are the way to go. I had a 87 Buick Regal Turbo T. Now that was a fun car. That car ran on pump gas 15 lbs. boost and Et streets 11.9 at 12.0 at 113-114. Man was that car fun, nobody new what hit'em. Look at most of the Ford stuff like pro 5.0 and these guys are haulin ass.

Overall for me now I like nitrous. Both for the simplicity and cheaper cost. However, if I had the cash a grasp on DFI I would build a turbo car. You can screw up a turbo small block 350 and still make 800-900 HP and drive it on the street!!

hey, i also received my first oil analysis from AVLube and results were normal as follows:

Iron = 7
Chromium = 0
Lead = 1
Copper = 12
Tin

Sorry, it went before I finished (no comments about that please)

Hey, I also received my first oil analysis from AVLube and results were normal as follows:
Iron = 7
Chromium = 0
Lead = 1
Copper = 12
Tin = 3
Alum = 3
Nickel = 0
Silver = 0
Silicon = 6
Boron = 136
Sodium = 8
Potassium = 1
Magnesium = 865
Calcium = 472
Phos = 1462
Zinc = 1414
Moly = 2
Fuel = A
Water = &lt;0.1%
Glycol = N
Visc 100c = 13.7

The mag thru Zinc numbers are additives in the oil, not meltdown of components LOL

This was last oil used by dealer, suppose to be Citgo 15w-40. I am now using Mobil Delvac 1300S 15W-40. I will change it at 5K and send it in again for analysis to see if any differences.

Truck had 15K at time of this change and oil has been changed every 3K faithfully up to the 15K mark. Now on the 1300S and 5K intervals.

Wish me luck

Your analysis from http://www.avlube.com/ looks excellent. All parameters, with my favorite subject of silicon (dirt) being an excellent single digit which translates into minimized component wear. With the increased anti-wear and detergency package of the Mobil 1300S, it will be interesting to follow its affect on your wear numbers.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

ChevyRus, I noticed you have a few more miles and oil changes under your belt. I'm hoping my results will look similar in the future.

What kind of air filter do you run? I'm using the K&N, possibly another contributor of dirt! ;)

TurboJoe, thanks I am running the stock GM filter so far waiting for something better to be on the market. I did get a new airbox (2002 model) and got rid of the stock 2001 model at about 10K. Of course it came with a new stock filter ha ha ha So maybe soon somethoing will be out there that everyone will love as much as they seem to love the Juice box.

Thanks George for taking a peek at the numbers.

Everyone have a great long weekend

I have some questions about the oil analysis. I know some guys who have used diesels hard for years, who've never had an oil analysis done, and had excellent service out of their truck(s).

Is there any documented correlation between increased silicone levels (and the other "bad" stuff) in oil samples and increased wear on the engine? If so, how does it correlate? What is the overall effect on performance?

For such a test to be valid, there would need to be tear-downs accomplished at various intervals. Things like the wear of rings, cylinder walls, and bearings would have to be compared between a low silicone motor and a high silicone motor, operated under the same conditions. Also, oil-pressure, power output and mileage would need to be recorded and compared between the two motors.

Is there anything like this out there? Or is this more along the lines of "use my special insecticide and you won't have anymore problems with elephants in your back yard?"

Blaine

Well, we'll see if George chimes in here:

He just got done doing my ferrography after 17k of service on an Amsoil air filter, and 10k on the 5w30 oil. We are still waiting on the particle count, but the ferrography shows EXCELLENT results in terms of silicon.

As for the effects of silicon, just imagine dumping in a handful of sand. :eek:

Silicon, accompanied by elevated wear metals shows what is happening. I've also recently learned that spectro analysis is only a VERY general indicator. The big stuff does NOT show up...

John, where is the best place to get your sample tested and who supplies the kits?


Thanks

As John has indicated, there is a direct correlation to dirt intake and engine/component wear rates. One teaspoon of dirt can completely destroy a large V-16 CAT engine so imagine the affect even a small dirt ingestion can have on our small engines.. Dirt is rather like a silent killer in that in many cases the induction leak enabling the dirt intake may not be readily visibible (in fact at times *very* difficult to find!) and oil analysis is the only way to find out what is happening. Additionally, oil analysis can give early warning to leaking head gaskets, cracked heads, anti-freeze contamination, before it causes catastrophic damage. Same with a bad fuel injector; oil analysis will catch that before causing damage, yet sometimes difficult to discern driving-wise with our computer engines. The list goes on and on.. Basically the most inexpensive insurance one can buy for one's engine plus when it comes to re-sale, having an oil analysis history eliminates a lot of question for a prospective future buyer. One of the banner's on this page is for avlube.com which has the regular spectrographic oil analysis kits for around $15 or the complete ferrography, particle count, etc. for $90. There are other people on this board who have them available also.
I review a little over 100 oil analysis results a day for companies I work with whose liveleyhood depends on engine and component availability and longevity. Without oil analysis, it would be like playing routlette, next to impossible to catch problems before they become failures.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

oneton,

I have a history with www.usoil.com and their analytical labs. Kathy is great to deal with, fast and friendly, and kits are free. Just pay for the anaylysis.

Amsoil has their Oil Analyzers lab as well. They sell the kits cash up front with or w/o postage.

That said, after talking with George in detail about these things, I am heading his way as he can explain things like no other. This means a lot to me, and whenever I can learn...

Take particle counts vs. ferrography as an example. I failed an engine where the cam bearings went out. The spectro-analysis showed nothing unusual, BUT I could actually SEE the chunks. This is because they concentrate on the teeny tiny stuff where the ferrography looks for all the stuff.

A std analysis runs around $15 where a ferrography is about $90, but given the detail, it's worth every penny IMHO.

FWIW, my soot showed extremely low on the last spectro-analysis, BUT the ferrography showed large globules in the +5 micron size range. The good thing is, tey did not hurt anything as the wear metals stayed low...

On edit: I did not read George's post (cost etc) prior to making mine...

[ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: kennedy ]</p>

Hi John,

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but as a general rule of thumb, how often do you have the oil analysis performed and with the use of Amsoil 5w30 oil what has been your regular oil change intervals? I noticed that in your earlier post it was 10k before you had the analysis performed.

George,

I understand dirt will ruin an engine. The assumption seems to be the amount of silicone in an oil analysis indicates how much dirt is in the engine.

My question is what levels of silicone in an oil analysis have been shown to cause engine damage? What examples are out there showing this correlation, and what conditions were these engines operated under? What was the data used to come to these conclusions?

Blaine

CSDMAX,

I have sampled and changed at 1,3,5,7, and 17k. The last 10k run was with 5w30 Amsoil. The Amsoil sample is the first one that I have had a ferrography done with. We are still waiting for a virgin oil sample to arrive at AV Lube for a baseline on the particle count.

I now have Delo 400 in, and will change at 3-5k, then run Delvac 1.

A large amount of dirt (silicon) can destroy an engine. An elevated dirt level will simply accelerate the rate of wear. Minimal dirt will enable the least amount of wear to occur in an engine. There is no "graph" or direct correlation as some engines are *very* sensitive to even small amounts of intake dirt (2 cycle Detroit Diesel engines were very easily damaged) and then there are some areas of the country where the intake dirt is much more abrasive than others. In other words, this is not science in its relationship. Conversely, as John has pointed out, there are inherent limitations with spectrographic oil analysis in that it looks at the 0 to 5 micron size range. If we have contaminants larger in size it may not be reflected as elevated silicon level, yet the accelerated wear will be reflected in the report. I look at over 100 oil samples results a day and still need to have brain storming sessions with other engineers at times trying to decipher exactly what is going on in an engine or component.
Suffice it to say, maintaining the lowest level of dirt (silicon) possible will ensure the longest life of the engine. I always strive for single digit dirt levels, if possible..
George Morrison, STLE CLS

George,

Thanks for the info. Sound's kind of like not eating junk food. It's not an exact science how much healthier it makes you, but you never hurt anything by reducing the junk.

Next question, are diesels more sensitive to dirt than gas motors?

Blaine

OK time for all you oil guru's to help me out here. Did my first oil analysis on this truck and just received the results. Analysis says no corrective action required, but I want to hear what you have to say about these numbers... Thanx in advance.

iron-12ppm
chromium-0
lead-5ppm
copper-10ppm
tin-3ppm
aluminum- 9ppm
nickel-0
silver-0
manganese-1ppm
silicon-9ppm
boron-38ppm
sodium-1ppm
magnesium-59ppm
calcium-4339ppm
barium-0
phosphorus-1274ppm
zinc-1367ppm
molybdenum-9ppm
titanium-0
vanadium-0
cadmium-0

And just for the record, I already changed the oil and filter. This was AMSOIL 15w40 synthetic, tested with 8k miles on oil and 25k on truck. :confused: :confused:

Looks almost new to me. You changed out good oil. I would of changed the filter and gone on for another 7500 miles.
Greg

Confirming what Greg has already said, analysis results are excellent. Good baseline for if you want to extend drain intervals, or just keep it at this level for a very, very long engine and component life...
George Morrison, STLE CLS

Greg & George

For all us slow people [img]tongue.gif[/img] could you post a range of acceptable Limits (ranges) for Hosses results :confused:

Thanks [img]smile.gif[/img]

Oil analysis doesn't really work that way. There are, what some would call, acceptable ranges. But being in those acceptable ranges may not necessarily mean that the oil is performing well, or that there isn't some sort of other problem.

Check this out. It's my oil sample history.

http://mousepadx.home.sprynet.com/oilanalysis.xls

I ran my oil about 7500 miles too long. But the sample results came back "within tolerances". Lesson learned. When hot rodding a diesel, you need to watch oil performance closely. As opposed to just meeting the specification limits.

Of course, Mr. Morrison has forgotten more about oil than most of us will ever know. So I'm sure he'll point out any flaws in this reply.

OIL IS AMSOIL 3000 SERIES 5W-30. SAMPLE TESTED BY OIL ANALYZERS, SUPERIOR, WI

15,000 MILES ON THIS OIL.

PHYSICAL PROPERTIES:

GYLCOL-------NEG. Does this mean there is no antifreeze in the oil?
% WATER------0.05
% FUEL-------1.0
% SOLIDS-----N/A

VISCOSITY:

40 DEGREES---N/A
100 DEGREES--18.7

OIL DEGRADATION:

SOOT--------2.3
% OXD------17.8
% NOX------11.4
TBN--------12.0
TAN-------- N/A

SPECTROGRAPHIC ANALYSIS:

IRON---------80
CHROMIUM------4
LEAD---------24
COPPER------562*
TIN-----------6
ALUMINUM-----14
NICKEL--------3
SILVER--------1
MANGANESE-----3
SILICON-------9
BORON--------37
SODIUM--------6
MAGNESIUM----14
CALCIUM----4310
BARIUM--------0
PHOSPHORUS-1271
ZINC-------1351
MOLYBDENUM----0
TITANIUM------0
VANADIUM------0
CADMIUM-------0

RESULTS OF TEST INDICATE VISCOSITY IS OUT OF INDICATED GRADE
CHANGE OIL AND FILTERS, IF NOT DONE WHEN SAMPLED
RESAMPLE AT NEXT REGULAR INTERVAL

*COPPER PROBABLY LEACHKATE FROM OIL COOLER/LINES


I did change everything when I sampled. I guess this good Amsoil oil is not holding up. Whats up with that.

Need feedback please.......tanks alot. ;)

i am telling you get shell rotilla T. that stuff is great.

Maverick,

email with the address of the company you are using. I would like to get an oil analysis done on my 02.

Thanks in advance.

GMC

email me at : gmc2002duramax@earthlink.net