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redbird2 02-25-2009 07:25 AM

Toasted 2003 LB7 in C4500
 
was getting the dreaded smoke at Idle for about 1 maybe 2 week was during the real cold weather, figured was injectors already had 2 set one at 67,000 second set at 132,000 now at 165,00 was driving to dealership Friday to set up appointment 4 miles before got there she let out a large cloud of back smoke and started shaking, pulled over pulled it my tech 2 (I'm a fleet tech) gave me code for #7 injector failure, so limped in to dealer ship parked it found oil dripping out the breather. left truck they called Monday no compression #7 pulled injector used bore scope chunk missing out of the piston trashed wall,

oil and fuel filter changed ever 7500 miles

so now new engine or new truck this is a C4500 with service truck body on it

I asked the dealer can we test the injector to see if it had a bad tip spray on one spot and did it lead to this failure there not sure of course.

has anyone else seen any do this or heard of this type failure thanks

THEFERMANATOR 02-25-2009 10:31 AM

I've read a few similiar stories on trucks that lost one piston after an injector stuck open and hydro-locked the cylinder. And I can validate first hand that a failed injector will burn a chunk out of the corner of a piston, this is what just happened on my old 6.5. Injector stuck open so fule sprayed in a stream instead of a mist and burned a chunk right out of the corner of the #2 piston.

More Power 02-25-2009 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redbird2 (Post 250642)
was getting the dreaded smoke at Idle for about 1 maybe 2 week was during the real cold weather, figured was injectors already had 2 set one at 67,000 second set at 132,000 now at 165,00 was driving to dealership Friday to set up appointment 4 miles before got there she let out a large cloud of back smoke and started shaking, pulled over pulled it my tech 2 (I'm a fleet tech) gave me code for #7 injector failure, so limped in to dealer ship parked it found oil dripping out the breather. left truck they called Monday no compression #7 pulled injector used bore scope chunk missing out of the piston trashed wall,

oil and fuel filter changed ever 7500 miles

so now new engine or new truck this is a C4500 with service truck body on it

I asked the dealer can we test the injector to see if it had a bad tip spray on one spot and did it lead to this failure there not sure of course.

has anyone else seen any do this or heard of this type failure thanks

Bad luck.... Yes, we've heard of this happening before - a couple of times. With a high-pressure common rail, there is a lot more fuel available when an injector fails to shut-off, which can result with a burned piston.

My guess is that this problem didn't appear suddenly, but the symptoms accumulated over some period of time (a few days or weeks, perhaps).

Unless the cylinder wall is scored, a cheap repair (not counting labor) would be to install a new piston and ring set.

And, since you've not had good luck with injectors, an auxiliary 2-micron fuel filter might help with reliability.

Jim

Duramaster 02-25-2009 05:58 PM

:confused: BUT WAAAAAIT a minute!!! :confused: I'm a dealer tech and I'm already blaming it on the injectors and I haven't seen the truck! What did your dealer say about the injector failure causing the overfueling and cloud of smoke??? You need to fight this. Ask to get the AVM involved. Even go as far as to call GM customer relations. At the least, you should be able to get some warranty help with this especially if you bought the truck new.

Mark Rinker 02-25-2009 07:55 PM

C4500s will appear to go through injectors faster - because on average, they will go through 50-100% more fuel than any 2500/3500, in the same amount of miles. I had two sets in 135K miles - first at 60K and second at 120K. If you figure the lifetime mileage average was 9-10mpg, compared to a street driven 2500 at 16-18, its not that surprising.

I let the first set smoke for about 3,000 miles, trying to get home from a long round trip for some downtime and service work. It went from that smoke only at idle to plumes in a very short time, and then developed a nasty fuel knock...all in about 100 miles across Washington state. Luckily, I exited the freeway, got a hotel, and discovered that the closest Medium Duty service department was <20 miles away in Spokane, so I limped in the next morning. The knock was almost non-existant when the truck was cold, and got worse as the engine warmed up.

Bummer about the piston damage. I have been lucky in that regard. Best of luck to you with the repairs!

redbird2 02-25-2009 09:25 PM

toasted d-max
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Duramaster (Post 250664)
:confused: BUT WAAAAAIT a minute!!! :confused: I'm a dealer tech and I'm already blaming it on the injectors and I haven't seen the truck! What did your dealer say about the injector failure causing the overfueling and cloud of smoke??? You need to fight this. Ask to get the AVM involved. Even go as far as to call GM customer relations. At the least, you should be able to get some warranty help with this especially if you bought the truck new.

the dealer told me that over fuel could not cause this and that if the injector tip was clogged it would be caused by carbon, and they will not warranty that. it was the first question I asked when they told me what they found. I have had time to call GM yet however i have time in the morning.

yes I have had the truck from day 1 put all but 13 of the miles on it.

someone asked if it had any problems before hand last week it had started smoking I was on my way to the dealership when it failed.

I will fight this I'm not done yet they called me today and gave me a quote of $14,500 to replace the engine, $5000.00 If i supply the engine. my part supply dealer gave me a quote of $7500.00 for a new long block with injectors installed, I will swap it myself if i can not GM help on this.

Rabbler 02-26-2009 12:03 AM

Excuse me, did you say they want $5k to just to install the engine you supply?
Is someone planning on taking a whole week to do it????
I think it's time to tow your truck somewhere else! Fast!
I'm with Duramaster, I think you have a case for GM to cover the engine as consequential damage caused by injector failure.

Now you better get your story strait.
I've dealt with a few district and regional service managers and most of them are looking for any reason to deny a major claim.
If you tell them for example "Ya it was smokin real bad for a few weeks but I drove it anyway and even when it started knockin real bad I just put the pedal down and drove it till it quit" They can claim neglect or abuse and say "If you had it towed in at the first sign of the smoke we would have replaced the injectors under the extended policy and the engine would be fine" DENIED!
Be very careful what you say.

Hope it all works out for you

redbird2 02-26-2009 04:53 AM

toasted d-max
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabbler (Post 250688)
Excuse me, did you say they want $5k to just to install the engine you supply?
Is someone planning on taking a whole week to do it????
I think it's time to tow your truck somewhere else! Fast!

i'm not planning on them doing it the only reason I had at the dealer is it was acting just like it did when the injectors failed, figured it would not hurt to ask them for a quote.

I'm will call the service manger this morning and talk to him and get the region manger involved as well, even if they supply the just the hard parts it still going to cost me more than doing the work in house which I do not have time for with 100 other truck to watch after.

thanks

Oh BTW I can be very tight lipped when talking about warranty with manufacture have had lots of experience over 20 years good advice however.

Mark Rinker 02-26-2009 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rabbler (Post 250688)
Excuse me, did you say they want $5k to just to install the engine you supply?
Is someone planning on taking a whole week to do it????
I think it's time to tow your truck somewhere else! Fast!
I'm with Duramaster, I think you have a case for GM to cover the engine as consequential damage caused by injector failure.

Now you better get your story strait.
I've dealt with a few district and regional service managers and most of them are looking for any reason to deny a major claim.
If you tell them for example "Ya it was smokin real bad for a few weeks but I drove it anyway and even when it started knockin real bad I just put the pedal down and drove it till it quit" They can claim neglect or abuse and say "If you had it towed in at the first sign of the smoke we would have replaced the injectors under the extended policy and the engine would be fine" DENIED!
Be very careful what you say.

Hope it all works out for you

Ummm...apparently the truck had been driven too long with the known injector leaking and truck smoking problem. Period. When the truck starts smoking badly, or develops any fuel knock, its imperitive to quickly get it off the road, or accept the risk of continuing to operate it.

That being said, I believe that the strongest (legitimate) complaint here is the second set of warranty injectors has failed at only 30K miles, and the truck has been down TWICE for injectors, since new.

Bang that drum, my friend.

My .02 worth.

Duramaster 02-27-2009 07:21 AM

Here is what GM warranty pays to replace the engine.............................


OPERATION NUMBER: J1840 Coverage Code: D Manual Transmission RWD LABOR TIME: 13.4 Manual Trans 4WD LABOR TIME: 14.8 Automatic Trans - RWD LABOR TIME: 14.0 Automatic Trans - 4WD LABOR TIME: 15.4 With Engine Block Heater ADD: 0.1 With A/C ADD: 0.7

Unless you have alot of aftermarket "GARBAGE" mounted to the truck that will cause headaches, I would say that the dealership would not be out of line if they quoted you 20 - 25 hours. At $100 an hour that is $2000 - $2500.

Good luck with your engine.

redbird2 02-28-2009 03:28 AM

service manual needed
 
I'm needing to find a service manual that covers the 03 d-max or at least a copy of the assembly section with torque specs if anyone can point me in the right direction or has this information they could share I would be most great full thanks

DmaxMaverick 02-28-2009 03:36 AM

www.helminc.com (print)
www.alldatadiy.com (online)

Duramaster 02-28-2009 07:03 PM

What exactly do you need?

redbird2 02-28-2009 10:00 PM

service manual
 
Mainly looking for torque specs and sequence for mains head bolt pattern tearing LB7 all the way down and replacing the bad piston are re-ring while in there I guess anything that can help with the rebuild
thanks

madmatt 03-01-2009 04:15 PM

do the alldata route. next to GM SI it's about the most up to date and helpful system available to consumers. I use it on other makes and models and on some older GM and it does fine.

redbird2 03-02-2009 11:14 AM

LB7 swap LBZ in place of it HELP
 
have a blown LB7 and found a LBZ bolting in is the easy part how much electrical will or will not work has anyone done this swap? if so what pointers do you have or should I not consider this please HELP ASAP everyday this is down is money out of my pocket this is my moble service truck
thanks

Mark Rinker 03-02-2009 12:24 PM

Two words: Don't bother.

Have not heard of anyone that has attempted this. Anything is possible, however attempting this would be very unadviseable - as major, buku incompatibilities exist, too numerous to go into here.

Have you considered the route MorePower suggested, repairing just the damaged cylinder/piston? This would likely be your least expensive option.

If you plan to replace the engine with used, the only rationale would be to find one with significantly lower miles than your current engine has. Lots of low mile LB7s are to be had on the automotive recycler networks. eBay occasionally has reman LB7s, or even new crate engines from time to time.

My recommendation would be to find a 2002-2004 model year, rejecting 2001s. The newer the engine, the more likely you are to score the latest updates to the injectors. An early 2004 would be the best find, for that reason alone. 5-7K should buy you a good used takeout engine with under 100K miles. If the mileage of the takeout engine is known, and the donor VIN available, you should be able to run the VIN at any dealership to determine what, if any warrany injector replacement was done - and at what mileage - since you won't have any more warranty after the swap.

No need to pay for the donor trucks wiring harness (...beyond the engine's modular wiring harness connectors, that is) or electronics (ECM, TCM, BCM) as your existing stuff is specific to the C4500 and your truck's VIN - and must be reused. I would look for a complete engine from any 2500, 3500, or 4500 series truck, using everything it comes with, right down to the intake and exhaust manifolds. A complete donor LB7 engine will be 'plug compatible' with your C4500's wiring harness and all other accessories, you can swap, keep or sell whatever you end up with duplicates of, that are now attached to your broken engine, including alternator, starter, waterpump, pulleys/serpentine stuff, injector pump, etc.

I would not buy an engine without known mileage or the known donor VIN#. Very adviseable to inspect the engine before purchase to see if any external damage exists from the accident that totalled the donor truck, or the handling of the engine in the recycler yard. A basic warranty of some kind should be available for no additional cost, to ensure you have a runner.

Good luck. Stay in touch. Ask lots of questions.

Mark Rinker 03-02-2009 02:46 PM

Also - you will need to swap the oil pickup, oil pan from your current engine to the new engine, if you decide to do a full swap. The C4500 has a deeper pan with much larger total capacity. I assume the oil pumps are the same, but should be researched further to see if there is any difference...

madmatt 03-02-2009 05:44 PM

It happens all the time. Talk to Kyle at Crank It Up. He's got a LBZ in Climax now. Had some issues w/ the 6 speed alli not playing nice with the IPC but it was worked out in time.

Mark Rinker 03-02-2009 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by madmatt (Post 250933)
It happens all the time...

In a C4500? I'll bet you can't produce an example. I am also operating under the assumption that RedBird2 intends to do this himself...

I think when you consider cost, complexity, and stated timeframe - the LB7 swap is advisable...but hey, anything's possible.


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