Dual CP-3

[More Power]

So much to learn, so little time... I've been aware of the concept for using a second high-pressure common-rail injection pump (i.e. CP-3) to boost fuel supply pressure, but I don't know a lot about how it works, and if it boosts (or supplies) both low & high fuel pressure to the system's original Bosch CP-3.

PPE offers a Dual CP-3 system that mounts in place where a second alternator would mount, and is belt driven.

I'm hoping PPE will chime in and explain how it works, what components are used, what sort of performance benefits are there beyond what an auxiliary electric lift pump might provide, and what sort of cost range we're talking about.

Ken Florey was using one on his 2002 GMC last summer during the Pull-Off, which was my first look at a dual CP-3 setup....

Thanks,

Jim

[ToddMeister]

I've also seen a few of these dual CP-3 setups last summer. Mike Tomac's and Tony Burkhard's trucks have the PPE setup installed I believe.

They are making big power with their trucks at the local truck pulls.

[dieseldummy]

Adding the second CP3 basicly doubles the volume of high pressure fuel. It helps maintain rail PSI with big injectors or a long duration tune. It works in parralell with the stock CP3 so it's only capable of supplying the same max pressure as the stock unit. I've been told that the LBZ CP3 can make more PSI, but how much more I don't know. The kits seem simple enough from a hard parts stance, but the controller part seems a bit more complex.

[Dan@PPE]

The dual CP3 pumps operate as mentioned in the previous post

[Mark Rinker]

What fuel rails are used with the dual pump setup? Do both pumps supply both rails, or are each bank of cylinders fed by one pump?

[SoTxPollock]

Along with Marks question, Do you run dual pickups at the tank, or still a single all the way to the additional pump. Just how much is necessary to not starve the single pump. Isn't that really the key? If that single pump can't supply enough volume with a lift pump for assist, you must be turning the world black when you run.

[Bobo]

Ken was using an ATS Twin Cp3 kit, not PPE.

[Bobo]

The LBZ pumps can make up to 29000+ psi, and should be run together….

The LB7 and LLY pumps can make up to 26000+ psi…. now remember with 2 pumps you will have double the available volume at these pressures if so desired….


Hope this answers some questions....

It does bring up a few questions. Why do you think the LB7 and LLY pumps can't make the same psi as the LBZ? Can you post a pic of your gauge on the truck you use to monitor the 29000+psi pumps you are using on your LB7(the stock rail sensor does not read that high)? I seem to be able to get over 26000psi with my LLY pumps on the ATS setup I run with F1 Diesel ovesized injectors. Maybe mine is a freak!

[Dan@PPE]

What fuel rails are used with the dual pump setup? Do both pumps supply both rails, or are each bank of cylinders fed by one pump?

Booth rails are fed, The factory crossover H/P lines get the pressure the same between the two rails.

[Dan@PPE]

Along with Marks question, Do you run dual pickups at the tank, or still a single all the way to the additional pump. Just how much is necessary to not starve the single pump. Isn't that really the key? If that single pump can't supply enough volume with a lift pump for assist, you must be turning the world black when you run.

With our setup we use the stock pickup and fuel feed from the tank. A lift pump is recommended but not necessary. You could always dual feed the Daul Fuelers and really have some Fuel volume....

[dieseldummy]

[QUOTE=Dan@PPE]The dual CP3 pumps operate as mentioned in the previous post

[Dan@PPE]

It does bring up a few questions. Why do you think the LB7 and LLY pumps can't make the same psi as the LBZ? Can you post a pic of your gauge on the truck you use to monitor the 29000+psi pumps you are using on your LB7(the stock rail sensor does not read that high)? I seem to be able to get over 26000psi with my LLY pumps on the ATS setup I run with F1 Diesel ovesized injectors. Maybe mine is a freak!

I believe our post did state.....
26000+, which means over 26000 psi....... So don't think yours is a freak.....

We do offer consumers other means of going higher psi on an LLY/LB7 or LBZ (duramaximizer), since factory tuning tables are a limiting factor in your application

We may have these gauges and special high psi senders available for purchase in a couple months.....

[Dan@PPE]

Doesn't the ATS kit spin the second CP3 something to the tune of 10% faster? I'd think that would be a big no-no... I see a company or two have some beefed up singles for the Cummins to play with, why not for the Dmax?

I have not personaly worked with ATS kit, That would be question better answered by ATS...

[Kennedy]

There have been a lot of attempts at modifying the single CP3 and/or force feeding them. I haven't yet seen any that do a really good job. I've seen some gains, but the force feeding tends to take the "regulation" out of it.

Twin CP3's should be just that twin and run at the same speed. The CP3 doesn't like to spin much over 3500 rpm so spinning it 10% faster isn't really a good idea.

Lift pump(s) and pickup mods are even more important on a twin CP3 setup. 12-15"hg or more is common in a stock supply line. Add a second pump and it will only get worse...

[Bobo]

I believe our post did state.....
26000+, which means over 26000 psi....... So don't think yours is a freak.....

We do offer consumers other means of going higher psi on an LLY/LB7 or LBZ (duramaximizer), since factory tuning tables are a limiting factor in your application

We may have these gauges and special high psi senders available for purchase in a couple months.....

We can command over 36000 psi with EFI Live. Have you tested the LB7 and LLY pumps vs. the LBZ pumps on the same truck with the same tuning? Did the LBZ pump hold higher rail psi? Have you used a LB7 or LLY pump on an LBZ to see if the pump will keep up? Do you have a pic of your gauge that reads 29000psi plus?

[DmaxMaverick]

How high does the PCM show on a scan tool? Where does it max out? Or....is the programming (EFI, etc.) lying to the PCM in regards to the pressure?

[Kennedy]

We can command over 36000 psi with EFI Live. Have you tested the LB7 and LLY pumps vs. the LBZ pumps on the same truck with the same tuning? Did the LBZ pump hold higher rail psi? Have you used a LB7 or LLY pump on an LBZ to see if the pump will keep up? Do you have a pic of your gauge that reads 29000psi plus?

You can command all you want with the tuning, it doesn't mean it will go there.

[Bobo]

You can command all you want with the tuning, it doesn't mean it will go there.

It doesn't mean it won't go there either!

[Mark Rinker]

Um....huh?

BoBo, if you are seriously going to challenge EVERYTHING that anyone states here...well...eventually (soon) nobody will listen.

Just a thought.

[Bobo]

Um....huh?

BoBo, if you are seriously going to challenge EVERYTHING that anyone states here...well...eventually (soon) nobody will listen.

Just a thought.

Get a gauge....then maybe you will listen...or you can just take everyones word and hope they are testing the things you need them to be testing. Good luck. Just because I don't post on here every day, don't mean I'm not involved with Duramax motorsports every day. I love the performance of these trucks.....but I'm very cautious as a consumer. I like to test products on my own dime and it has cost me a lot of money. Some are good, some are bad. Twin CP3 pumps have been great for the performance market. To be sure that upgrading two very expensive CP3 pumps from LB7/LLY to LBZ pumps is worth the money, I think we should do our own testing to see the benefits. When a stock data log can't pick much info over 26Kpsi on the LB7/LLY, I think it is a very good idea for the consumer to look into the claims of those that are selling products and making a profit to make sure that these claims are tested and proven to show some sort of gain for the money spent. PPE is claiming that the LB7/LLY pumps are good for 26K+psi and the LBZ pump is good for 29K+psi(you can't see much over 26Kpsi with the stock psi gauge for the LB7/LLY. You can command well over 26K psi on the LB7/LLY. Since you can't "see the difference" how will you know there is one? If the LBZ pumps run 29Kpsi and the LB7/LLY pumps only put out 27Kpsi on the same tune, there is no way to see the data with the stock configuration. Someone has to have an aftermarket fuel rail psi gauge that reads 40Kpsi to see the difference) To me it seems like the LBZ pump is capable of producing more psi. More psi generally produces more power. If you choose to spend your money without doing the research to back up your purchase, then that is your decision. I choose to look into how I spend my money. I'm running an ATS Twin CP3 kit on my truck with an old ATS twin feed CP3. That twin feed CP3 was sold for a very high price with a claim that it increased power. That was not the case and I got that CP3 for next to nothing since it did not work as advertised. Although ATS is a very reliable company on the cutting edge when it comes to performance break thoughts, the twin feed CP3 did not pan out how they thought it would. With that said, the LBZ CP3 is superior in design to the older units. The internal upgrades should benefit the flow characteristics of the pump. Will those internal upgrades show their benefit with stock regulators and electronics attached to the LBZ pump? If the LLY or LB7 regulator/electronics create any sort of disadvantage to the LBZ pump, the upgrade to the LBZ pump will be determined a waste of money until the better design of the pump can be utilized(kinda like the twin feed pump was kicked to the curb). Believe me, if I thought I could believe every claim I hear, I'd spend the cash. Since I've seen less than stellar results from claims that I've bought into, I'm proud to be a skeptic. If that makes me not believable, then so be it.