moral support required!

[derekja]

So a couple weeks ago I bought a 1998 silverado 3500. Raised 6", intercooler and pyro, boost, and tranny temp guages, custom exhaust, neat gooseneck hitch and airbags. 215,000 miles on it. I paid $5800. Needed new brakes and had a coolant leak, but it was a pretty good deal, I thought.

So the diesel shop I took it to to get checked out called me and said "there are so many things wrong with this truck that I don't know where to start. Can you get your money back?"

I replied no, and asked him to elaborate. He's still coming up with an estimate, but gave me this list:

brakes, front and rear are shot, ABS light is on
front end is completely worn out - suspension, tie rods, the whole ball of wax
leaking wheel seals
one rear shock missing altogether!
airbags and hoses to the airbags are damaged
exhaust leaks at the manifold
coolant leak
air filter plug - charge air cooler falling off
boost leak somewhere
pcm is throwing a boost code

he did say that the engine and tranny seem to be in decent shape and the black smoke was just the result of a plugged air filter.

Thinking it through, I'm kind of annoyed at his message about getting my money back and think he might have just been "softening me up" for a whopping estimate. (if you have thoughts on what a new front end and new brakes and such should cost I'd love to hear them before replying to his estimate when I get it on Monday)

I'm pretty decent with mechanical stuff, in general, but I'm a bit daunted by a modern diesel and turbocharger. I'm tempted to have them do the coolant leak and boost issue and leave the brakes and suspension and exhaust work to me. I figure at least with those pieces although there may be tricky mechanical problems, at least they aren't particularly complex systems like the engine and turbo are.

I don't have much in the way of tools, just basic wrenches and sockets and such, but the dieselpages book on the 6.5 has a short chapter on redoing a frontend and suggests that the specialty tools can be rented. I have a decently flat driveway to work in and have the time to mess with it for a while.

Suggestions? Either on good books I need to read, tools I should buy rather than rent, other ways of breaking up the work, etc?

Thanks a lot!

--Derek

[Arlie]

If the engine and tranny are OK and you like truck (you wouldn't have bought it if you didn't right?) things are not so bad. You really didn't spend that much (check out the price of a new one!).

If you have basic mechanical skill, don't mind doing this kind of work, and don't live where it's really cold, go for it! You'll know a lot about your truck and get a lot of satisfaction from having fixed it yourself.

A good factory repair manual will help a bunch. Below is an online deal that will be the best $24.95 you've spent in a long time.

http://www.alldata.com/products/diy/index.html

There's lots of knowledge here on this site if you get stuck on something. Be very sure to read about cooling issues and attend to the leak.

BTW: next time get an inspection before you hand over the cash!

Arlie

[trbankii]

BTW: next time get an inspection before you hand over the cash!

X2! Nothing exactly sounds like grounds for giving up on the truck. Although I'd add the airbag stuff to the list of things that I'd hire out... If I had known about it before buying the truck I'd use these items to talk the price down somewhat.

[derekja]

Good to know on the airbags, I don't know much about them.

Thanks for the manual suggestion. Is that a decent alternative to the $175 (ack!) GM service manual set that I've seen referenced on here?

I do like the truck a lot. And although the shop is still trying to diagnose the boost problem and hasn't given me an estimate yet, I don't see that any of this threatens my keeping it. Just money and time...

I wish I had gotten an inspection first, but that is so hard to do. There must be a way to manage that better, but I watch craigslist for a couple months, call on trucks that seem reasonable and usually get told that someone is already coming to look. When I do end up being first, there are always other people interested if I don't take it. I found the coolant leak and brake issues and talked him down $1200 on that basis, but I obviously missed a fair amount. I mean, the other alternative is dealer-sold used vehicles, but the markup there is huge as compared to buying from an individual.

Thanks for the thoughts!

[DmaxMaverick]

The alldata manual is the same as the Helm GM shop manual, only in electronic form. IMO, better for many reasons. The least of which is the price. I have a subscription for every vehicle I own or have the pleasure to maintain.

[trbankii]

You see the manuals on eBay every now and then.

As for being told that someone else is looking - that is always the story... Oldest trick in the book - "You better buy it now because the next guy is coming along any minute with cash..." If he had other hard offers he wouldn't have been talked down the $1200...

My standard statement when selling something is "You were first to call and have first shot at it. Either buy it and take it or make definite arrangements or I call up the next guy" whether there is a next guy or not. Too many times that someone has asked for me to hold something for a day, week, or whatever and never bothered to call back. I'm more than willing to work with people, but I've held things only to have it fall through when I could have sold it and been done with it three times over with those waiting next in line...

[K. D.]

FWIW, just bought the 98 GM manual from Helm for $100. For some things, the $20 Haynes manual is much better, they don't assume you have a huge shop loaded with special tools.

K.D.

[Robyn]

Well now
I would look over the list of issues and start fixing them one at a time.
Brakes are defiantely high on the list of things to have working well.

Most of what the mechanic has told you about can be fixed in the driveway/garage.
The only thing you will really need the shop for is a line up on the front end after you replace the worn out parts.
I have been through the entire front end on one of these beasts and its not all that bad. I will say I would much rather work on the old straight axle but the IFS is no biggy.

Fix the safety issues first and then move on. Find out why you have the code and get on top of that so you dont cause undo harm to the engine from running so much fuel and no boost.

The little crap will just come as you get to it.

My rule on a used truck/ car is this.
What sort of shape is the Interior in?? a ratty interior is expensive to fix.
Whats the body and paint like?? this too can get spendy to fix.
mechanical stuff is easy and cheap compared to the other two.

Age and mileage mean nothing, condition is everything.

I recently bought a 91 GMC Burb 1/2 ton 4X4 $3500
The truck is MINT inside. the front right fender is nerfed a tad but overall the truck is really nice.
All the electrical accessories work and the upholstery is like new.
I can spend a load of bucks on the engine and tranny and still come out fine.

Sounds like you did not do all that bad though.

Keep us posted and we will help you get this old girl back to health.

Good luck, Oh and remember, OLD Trucks have a soul. New ones are just iron.

Best to ya
Robyn

[derekja]

body and paint are excellent. Interior is pretty good. Font seats are a bit ratty, but comfortable and covered with nice seat covers. Funny, those are the things that I was willing to give on some figuring that mechanical condition was more important!

I'm going to let the shop do the boost and coolant leak, and probably mess with the airbags. I'll certainly give updates and ask questions as I struggle with the rest! Thanks.

[Robyn]

Good deal.
Let us know how it all shakes out.

Robyn

[96ccdd]

Just my .02 but if you don't intend on towing why waste the money to fix the air bags. For what they will charge you to fix them you could most likley install a completely new system yourself. As far as the boost issue you could have posted the code and got the need feed back to repair it yourself. But over all the deal you got does not seem bad.

[arveetek]

Just my .02 but if you don't intend on towing why waste the money to fix the air bags. For what they will charge you to fix them you could most likley install a completely new system yourself.

I agree, assuming these airbags are the aftermarket type that allow for hauling heavy loads, and are not a crucial part of the 6" lift system. The aftermarket air bags are only necessary when hauling something heavy, like a large trailer or slide-in truck camper.

A complete air bag setup from Firestone should cost you around $300 for the rear of the truck, and they're actually very easy to install.

If that's the kind of air bags you have, I'd forget about them until a later date. Perhaps you'll find you don't need them at all.

Casey

[trbankii]

Here I was thinking he meant the air bags in the dash...

[billschall]

Derek,

I know EXACTLY how you feel! I acquired my 'beauty" last March off eBay and thought I'd gotten a pretty good deal at $6200. After enjoying the truck for about three weeks, the cheap black paint that the former owner (dealer) had painted on the hitch & frame began to wear off. The rusty scale on the underside is SOOOOOO bad, that I'm seriously considering buying another frame from a yard and swapping everything over. The Engine Room isn't (wasn't) much better.

Things started going bad about 5 or 6 weeks after owning it. It would stall intermittently and threw codes (I don't remember 'em right now) indicating PMD failure. So, I got me-self a new PMD with remote & mounted the heat sync on the intake.

The stalling improved, but did not go away completely.

Then my fuel mileage went to the dogs (see signature).

I found this website shortly after the stalling issue surfaced and also bought the Troubleshooting & Repair Guide, which I now affectionately refer to as my Diesel Bible. Get it. You won't be sorry.

On Christmas Eve, I pulled the thing into the garage for a planned R&R of injectors, glow plugs, injection lines and moving the PMD farther away from the engine. A buddy at work convinced me to check the compression and after doing so, discovered that #2 was down about 150 pounds. Huh-oh. Pulled the heads expecting to see blown head gaskets, but they didn't look so bad - nothing obvious anyway. Sent the heads to the machine shop.

Junk.

All eight exhaust valves cracked and bad cracks in between the valves on three jugs.

Another $700, plus the necessary extras (head bolts, gaskets).

Both manifolds were junk with holes in 'em. Add $200 more.

My down pipe was pretty, but the four bolts/nuts in the rectangular flange that bolted to the cat were completely wore down to a point. Had to cut it off. Muffler had something loose inside, and the crossover was junk. Another $400 for exhaust (upgraded to 4").

While I was poking around TDP, I found several discussions on water pumps & crank dampeners (aka harmonic, torsional). Figured by the looks of my water pump, another $45 or so was cheap investment as I already had everything off.

Both dampeners also needed replaced. Another hundred or so.

The Diesel Gods must have been smiling on me the day I checked my timing chain - it only has almost 3/8" of slop, well within the wear limits.

Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING that I have taken off the engine has had to be cleaned either via sandblasting or wire wheel and painted. (I use Rust Bullet - great paint).

Did I mention the left inner fender well? I'm amazed the battery didn't fall through. Another $50.

Like you, I have some mechanical experience and was a bit overwhelmed with these diesels. Nevertheless, the information on this site and in the Diesel Bible is fantastic and the guys (and gal) here are very helpful. Chances are your issue "du jour" has already been talked about. But don't be afraid to ask if you can't come up with something.

Manuals? I have a Chiltons Repair manual for the truck & the aforementioned Diesel Bible. I also bought the subscription to AllData, but other than the TSB's & recall info, they really don't provide anything more than the Chilton's book.

You CAN do it, man. Patience & willingness to learn is all it takes (plus some metric deep-well sockets). We're all here to help.

-Bill

[derekja]

Thanks for the updated info on the airbags. I hadn't been spending any time thinking about them yet, so I'll just keep that one on the back burner until I need them. They are aftermarket and don't seem essential to the 6" lift.

Whew, Bill, that's quite a list! I hope you've got an awesome truck now after all that work. My fingers are crossed that I get out a bit easier. The two 6.5L books from the site here seem full of great info. Definately happy with that purchase.

[derekja]

Oh man, I'm not going to get out easier than Bill.

The shop had told me they thought that the engine and tranny were OK, but they just called me back. They had been waiting on a cooling system part from Chevy to fix the leak and told me they couldn't diagnose the boost until the cooling system was fixed.

Well, they now tell me that the boost was easy enough, but that once the engine gets up to temperature that it develops "massive internal compression" which is a sign of an internal engine problem. [edit #2: I was reading about this and baffled as to what would cause internal engine compression to go up like that... phoned back and the mechanic working on it had gone home, but his co-worker told me that they hadn't done a compression test, but just tested the cooling system and saw it going up over 15psi, so he was talking cooling system pressure... maybe just a head gasket then?]

I don't know why I didn't see any of that on my way up there, it was a good 20 mile drive and the temperature never got up overly high, but the pyro was reading 800 or so. It had good power on the way to the shop, held 70 up hills easily, etc.

I'm not sure what to do now. I can just summon the confidence to work on brakes and the front end, but I think an engine swap may be beyond me. Even if it does make sense. [*edit* but I do have time and a place to work... and enough money saved away to buy some tools and parts, so maybe this is the universe telling me that it's time to pick up this skill...]

Might have a truck for sale... and be driving a bicycle soon. *sigh*

[gmctd]

The K lift-kits involve a whole new sub-frame and some suspension pieces, usually bolted in with butter-grade bolts, which means they are constantly in need of re-torquing - and realignment.

Go thru that whole front undercarriage bracketry, tighten all the bolts and nuts, then check the rod-ends and joints - likely, all you may need is an alignment.

It it were mine, I would then totally short-arc the sub-frame to the oem frame, leaving the threaded fasteners in place, particularly since it's a 3500.

Rest of the jack uses the oem GM fasteners from the original setup, so should require only normal maintenance after that.

If it's fairly clean and not a rust-bucket, you could still spend 4k on it and still be under commercial value for a '98 3500

[RoverIIa]

I've had the ummm... pleasant experience of purchasing more than a few beater/lifted/wheelin trucks over time, and I think there are some things to consider:

Look at the battery cables... people who take the time to upgrade things like battery cables to heavier gauge (or even just maintain good, corrosion-free connections on the stockers) tend to do other things right too.

Look for anti-seize or loc-tite on the appropriate exposed portions of bolt threads, this is another good indicator that the owner cared about the truck.

Check wiring harnesses for those little clips that pinch through other wires... especially in the case of custom stereo or trailer brake installations. People using large numbers of these don't really care about the vehicle.

Also check for large numbers of cable ties that will keep things from rubbing, heat shield where appropriate, and grommets any time a wire or hose passes through sheet-metal. People who take the time to do this, do other things right as well.

Brakes are generally cheap and easy. Be sure to REPLACE all of the fluid. Especially if it has passed through yellow and is approaching brown. Watch for little flecks of burned off paint behind the wheels on the lower fenders. This is a sign of an extreme brake overheat, which will destroy u-joints, ball-joints, wheel and axle seals, etc. You only have to spend one -20 degree weekend changing ball-joints to learn the importance of keeping your brakes cool!!!

For the most part, remember that everything gets dirty, everything rusts, you can't get away from it. You simply have to decide how much you can live with. I've driven some trucks that were rusted to the point of the body mounts punching through what floor was left, but they ran every day and ran well.

And... when buying something that is LIFTED... use this simple formula as a guide (it is not set in stone, and can be adjusted)

If you did not install it yourself, or have visual contact with the installation:

Cost to Make it Right (in dollars) = Inches of Lift x inches of lift x percentage of non-stock chrome x Number of Performance Stickers on Windshield

For instance... a truck with a 6" Lift, Chrome Wheels, Bumpers, Exhaust, Engine Kit, and Diff Covers (About 25% of the truck), 10 Stickers on the rear window will cost about:

6 x 6 x 25 x 10 = $9,000

Age, of the truck, and the seller, is also a factor, but hard to figure in.

Anyway... no time like the present to learn. I would suggest that some of your first purchases be a good pair of mechanics gloves, and some safety glasses. Also make sure to always buy, borrow, or rent the right tool for the job. I've gone to the hospital a few times because I was too cheap to get the right tool at the time... guess what... ER visits do not make tools cheaper!

Have fun, and good luck.

-Nate

[derekja]

*sigh*

OK, been thinking about this. Here's what I know:

1) the mechanic I took the truck to obviously doesn't like this truck to start with. I mean, he was telling me from the get go to sell it and get a new truck, just based on the front end work! He also had a mechanic out sick, more work than he could handle with big trucks (he seems to service mostly commercial diesels), and didn't want to fool with a personal truck (particularly a mod'ed one - he told me at the outset that I'd have to go to a performance shop to learn about the mod'ed PCM).

2) I really like this truck. I like Chevy's more than I do other trucks, in general, I love that it's lifted and has the clearance it does. I love that it was mod'ed with new gauges and intercooler and gooseneck and 10 ply tires and such. I love that it is still in great cosmetic condition. Battery cables are oversized, care seems to have been taken on all the customizations I could find.

3) The engine symptoms are bad, but not horrible. I'm going to have to do at least a gasket job, but to my knowledge (and I asked the seller to confirm) this is the first serious engine work that has been done since the truck was new. So it was probably time anyway. The seller got it from his father about 3 years ago - I think his father cared a great deal about the truck and did all the mods and then the seller used it really hard and beat it up.

4) The other suspension and brake work is time consuming, but not all that difficult. The truck has been worked hard and needs some updating. I knew that when I bought it.

So, the truck no longer has a coolant leak and has the boost issue at least mostly addressed (back up to 10psi anyway, since I don't know what's in the PCM I don't know how much higher it's supposed to go). Great, that's what I wanted from the shop. And they are going to give me a list of what else they found that needs replacing.

The seller has offered to help me do the head gasket replacement. Maybe I take him up on that, maybe not. I did a head gasket on a little mazda B2000 about 15 years ago, but haven't done one since. And certainly not on a diesel. So maybe some experienced help would be helpful. But a seller anxious to get me gone and do things quickly wouldn't be... we'll see.

If I do dive in on the head gasket, what else should get changed at the same time? Certainly glow plugs, at least check the injectors. 65TD mentioned in another thread to check the lift pump, timing chain set, belt tensioner, pulleys and harmonic balancer. I don't even really know what the last 3 are, but I'll find out.

What else? BTW. I assume it's easiest to change the head gaskets with the engine in place. But it's a high mileage engine. There's an argument to be made for a more complete overhaul and taking the engine out to do it. Opinions? Taking the engine out really quite scares me, btw. Just because of it's size and the logistics of it.

Also, ordering of the work. I presume that if I do take the engine out that that is the time to do the front end work, just because it will be less crowded in there. Is this true?

I guess this means that I've decided that I like this truck enough to take on some scary work and disregard the mechanic's advice to just sell the truck and get something else. I hope I'm not insane. If I put this amount of work into it then I want to do it right.. that means that if there are upgrades or components that I should think about replacing I want to know about them now. I sure don't want to have to have the heads off again anytime soon.

*feeling better than a couple hours ago, but I think I might be begining to hate this mechanic for continuing to try to deliver a death sentence on my truck*

[gmctd]

'Dja ever stop to think, mebbe the mechanic wanted the truck - really bad?

I mean, really, really bad?

Whadda deal, fer 5k.