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Thread: Three LBZ tow tune comparison

  1. #21

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    Funny you should ask. Had some decent hills in eastern Tennessee today, IATs peaked at 105 - about 30 degrees higher than the ambient temperature.

    I am running stock '06 airbox and stock exhaust with cat.
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Lubbock,Tx.
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    Guess you are talking hills that generated 1200-1300 EGT's(??); I cannot believe your IAT's are that low, I must say I am quite jealous, especially since I have some additional cool air supply. I have always had a nagging suspicion that my Banks muffler is a rat; got to go back stock one of these days and see.
    Mileage wise I feel pretty lucky if I get 10.
    Randy
    2011 Chevy 2500HD LML
    Red with Dark Cashmer Light Cashmer
    Superglide 5th wheel hitch
    Bed Rug
    Jack Rabbit Full Metal Jacket bed cover
    Aries 4" oval step rails

    LBZ now lives in Wisc.

  3. #23
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    Unplug the MAF and see if the reading goes nuts. Sure fire way to know what you are dealing with...
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  4. #24
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    Apr 2007
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    Lubbock,Tx.
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    John,
    I can do that with the scan tool, but not with the Edge as I sold it after getting your excellent tune of the ECM. I think that using the scan tool will pretty quickly reveal if the info is from the MAF or the other sensor you mentioned as the temps should be so different.
    One thing you mentioned in a repy to Mark about EGT's is the fact that his should be lower than mine with the lower state of tune of his, I did not know that there was that much of a difference. Is his tune something that I should think about changing to, or is it just marginally different in relation to the temps?
    Mark, sorry to get this a bit off topic; looking forward to your next report.
    Randy
    2011 Chevy 2500HD LML
    Red with Dark Cashmer Light Cashmer
    Superglide 5th wheel hitch
    Bed Rug
    Jack Rabbit Full Metal Jacket bed cover
    Aries 4" oval step rails

    LBZ now lives in Wisc.

  5. #25
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    Mark's is a unique situation. He originally had the same base tune as you do on his other truck. The thing is, he felt it was unrefined and too aggressive. That is uncharacteristic of the tune in fact I hear the exact opposite. The decision was made to back it down and at the same time we migrated to a different truck. After talking some more with Mark, I think I may have figured something out. My 2005 has a touchy pedal. It can be hard to leave a stop and on a rough road it can be tough to hold speed without jerky acceleration on bumps caused by unstable pedal. Mark reported much the same. What I figure I have is a pump regulator getting bad. I can hear my idle roll at times and of all things when I put my 4 way flashers on it is more noticeable. Quite often when I back out of the shop it feels like it bounces like a nasty warped rotor. There is a good probability that his other truck parallels my 2005 as my 2007 runs VERY smooth.

    Hard to say if a tune update would be in order for you. I just scaled it back a bit on aggressiveness. EGT per power application should be the same, but the bigger tune has more if you go deep...
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by moss6 View Post
    Guess you are talking hills that generated 1200-1300 EGT's(??); I cannot believe your IAT's are that low, I must say I am quite jealous, especially since I have some additional cool air supply. I have always had a nagging suspicion that my Banks muffler is a rat; got to go back stock one of these days and see.
    Mileage wise I feel pretty lucky if I get 10.
    Randy
    1150-1250 range, yes...

    Never towed a 5'er, but my observation is that they must be tougher on wind drag than a V-shaped boat. You have this HUGE near-vertical surface right above the truck, forcing some air down behind the cab, while creating a very turbulent area between the tailgate and in front of the trailer.

    What happens when you return to the stock tune? Can you re-create the same IATs? EGTs?
    Last edited by Mark Rinker; 03-25-2009 at 17:17.
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Lubbock,Tx.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kennedy View Post
    Mark's is a unique situation. He originally had the same base tune as you do on his other truck. The thing is, he felt it was unrefined and too aggressive. That is uncharacteristic of the tune in fact I hear the exact opposite. The decision was made to back it down and at the same time we migrated to a different truck. After talking some more with Mark, I think I may have figured something out. My 2005 has a touchy pedal. It can be hard to leave a stop and on a rough road it can be tough to hold speed without jerky acceleration on bumps caused by unstable pedal. Mark reported much the same. What I figure I have is a pump regulator getting bad. I can hear my idle roll at times and of all things when I put my 4 way flashers on it is more noticeable. Quite often when I back out of the shop it feels like it bounces like a nasty warped rotor. There is a good probability that his other truck parallels my 2005 as my 2007 runs VERY smooth.

    Hard to say if a tune update would be in order for you. I just scaled it back a bit on aggressiveness. EGT per power application should be the same, but the bigger tune has more if you go deep...
    John,
    Don't get me wrong, I love the tune you provided. You know the senario, enthusiasts always are looking for something a step beyond and you offer the best to date. But I just want you to to provide me with something in the neighborhood of 1200 ft lbs that can pull my fifth wheel at any speed up any grade and not genenerate EGT's above 600degrees. I'm sure if you put your mind to it you can offer it at a bargain price.
    Luv ya John,
    Randy
    2011 Chevy 2500HD LML
    Red with Dark Cashmer Light Cashmer
    Superglide 5th wheel hitch
    Bed Rug
    Jack Rabbit Full Metal Jacket bed cover
    Aries 4" oval step rails

    LBZ now lives in Wisc.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Lubbock,Tx.
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    Mark,
    Wish you could hook up to a fifth sometime with some adverse wind, I believe you would think old Belsabub hinself had a hold on it and was digging in his heals. Side drag is phenominal on roughly 3500 sq. feet of area; I find that running directly into a wind is far less HP robbing than when the wind is from the side.
    As for changing back to a stock I could change back to the original ECM, but I guess I am just too lazy to go through the hassle of changing out, hooking up the Fifth and doing extensive road testing to document; besides I think the original ECM is quite corrupted by the Edge. That said, I think that what you are providing in your testing is invaluable to those who tow heavy. Kudos on your excellent reporting, and looking forward to the next installment as well as your end evaluation.
    And your IAT's still infuriate me, that is not right!
    Randy
    2011 Chevy 2500HD LML
    Red with Dark Cashmer Light Cashmer
    Superglide 5th wheel hitch
    Bed Rug
    Jack Rabbit Full Metal Jacket bed cover
    Aries 4" oval step rails

    LBZ now lives in Wisc.

  9. #29

    Default

    It would be interesting to try.

    Funny your comment on swapping the ECMs. I used to feel the same way, before this trip, until I perfected the method...now I can swap out the ECM much faster than loading a new tune on the Edge or Predator...

    • Put on a set of mechanics gloves, especially if the truck is hot.
    • Stand on the fender side, not in front of the truck, to do the swap...its much easier from this direction.
    • Unhook battery ground cable and move it aside (30seconds)
    • Unsnap ECM from holder (30seconds) - lift it straight up and clear of wiring harnesses until you can easily access the modular plugs.
    • Unhook smaller wire cluster first, large wire cluster second. (60 seconds)
    • Attach large wire cluster to the ECM first, small cluster second (60 seconds)
    • Snap new ECM back into holder (30 seconds)
    • Re-attach ground wire (30 seconds)
    Total time: ~4 minutes.

    Value of comparisons of your tune to stock: Priceless!
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  10. #30
    Join Date
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    Wind can be tricky. Yes a 5th has a big front, BUT I have also found that a dirty load (yes a boat can be dirty) tagging along behind can be just as bad or even worse. The fact that a boat is not fully enclosed/air sealed has a big impact.

    Last weekend I had my Polaris Ranger on my car hauler on a windy day. This put the Ranger probably 12-15' behind my tailgate. The Ranger has a windshield, no doors, and a soft top. It pulled like a SOB even being light as it was. Now granted my car hauler is stated to weigh 3500# empty, and the Ranger is guessing 1600# but that's not really much. I was running the little 50HP tune on my LLY and using 6th gear most of the time, but she had her hands full at the meager 1500-ish RPM. I could have switched to the big tune, but tat wouldn't be any fun...

    The morale of the story is that if you don't want to sell your little single axle trailer to Family don't even give a hesitant "I really didn't want to sell it but if I would I'd need $xxx) price hoping to scare them off. Just say no. I guess it's a good excuse now to buy a little heavier unit like I always wanted and it was going on 10yrs old...
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  11. #31

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    Mileage results are in, based on a 3-tank average with boat#3 (GCVW of 22,200#). Please note there is no way to create a perfectly controlled test, as terrain, ambient temps, fuel quality, etc. are variable - but the load and speed were held constant. They were much closer than I thought!!!

    Edge Evolution - tow setting - 9.8mpg
    Kennedy custom tune - 10.0
    DiabloSport Predator - tow setting - 10.4

    I will go over my notes and summarize more findings. I am pretty sure that the heavier the load, the better the more powerful tune will perform, mileage-wise, i.e. Kennedy's tune did better than the Predator on the second, heavier boat but swapped places when the load lightened...

    My overall MPG average for the first 6800 miles completed was 10.1mpg. Not bad for all the mountains with the heavy boat on the way to LA...
    Last edited by Mark Rinker; 03-26-2009 at 14:10.
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  12. #32

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    Summary time.

    The two hardest things about making a fair comparison between the three products tested here:
    1. The products are not consistent in their features/functionality - i.e. they have different features, price points, and attributes;
    2. No matter how dillegent one is in testing the products, there are too many variables to make solid, statistically valid claims of performance.
    That being said - here is my overall ranking, based on my experiences. Your wants/needs and experiences will certainly vary...


    #1) DiabloSport Predator - the combination of a handheld tuner, with multiple power levels, code reading/resetting capabilities that is also portable across multiple vehicles makes this product, at its price point, my top choice - if I had to have only one. I think the average Duramax enthusiast that bought their truck for a mix of daily driving, toy hauling, and street recreation would agree. There simply isn't much not to like about this product and its tunes, which are powerful - yet conservative in their implementation.

    The DiabloSport tuner is the tool I keep reaching for out of the back seat, because it can do so many things - in one portable package.

    #2) Kennedy Diesel custom tune - buying a Kennedy custom tune is like paying a talented, honest financial advisor to review your financial portfolio. They are extremely hard to find, but when you do find one, hold on and communicate what you envision. John can tailor his tunes to match EXACTLY what it is that you do with your truck, whether you race, tow, or are looking for low EGTS or high mileage. This latest tune now matches what I do - towing HEAVY (>20K# GCVW) - while still delivering monstrous power, with mileage improvement over stock, and the lowest EGTs and IATs of all the tunes tested. The limitations of the ECM based approach are obvious - and further is tailered to one VIN. If you tow a huge 5'er, heavy gooseneck trailer, or simply want a 'set-it-and-forget-it' approach to performance - this high touch approach to individualized performance and mileage enhancement works.

    John's tune is by far the most fun and addictive to drive, empty or loaded up - it turns your quiet, otherwise sedate Duramax into a big block, 4WD Chevelle.

    #3) Edge Evolution - a great set of digital gauges, with a handful of tunes that lean towards the street racer, not the recreational - and certainly not the commercial hauler. Doesn't match my use of diesel trucks at all - so its really hard for me to see the benefit. If you primarily use your truck as a daily driver, enjoy gauge watching and multiple performance levels to impress your friends at the stoplights, this product delivers it, all in one easily installed package.

    A great set of digital gauges, easily installed. If you find one of these on Ebay for $350 like I did, how can you go wrong owning it?



    That being said - I'll continue to run JK's tune, watching the numbers through the Edge Evolution 'gauges', checking/reset codes with the Predator - and using the right tune for the load or circumstances at hand... MORE TUNES = MORE OPTIONS = MORE FUN


    ...and isn't that really what this is all about?
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  13. #33
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    Mark,

    I'd be curious to see what kind of empty mpg you can get running 65mph or less.
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    foxboro,ma.
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    908

    Smile

    I have been running a older JK tune in my 2006 lbz . My finding after 2+years are exactly the same a Mark R. big power when you ask for it in the hills towing , very little if any smoke , good fuel mileage loaded or empty. I have been running Johns perfromance/tow tune (70 hp) version . almost 60000 mile todate with a basicly stock truck tuned , not even so much as a hick up . Thanks again John for allthe miles and smiles! My Dads tuned 6.0L f-350 powerjoke doesnt stand a chance pulling hills in high gear like these tunes do .
    93 c-2500 6.5td,96 6.5td x cab,01 GMC lb7 Xcab ,2004 lly crew cab ,2006 lbz crew cab,honda CBR1100xx,2003 polaris prox 700 , 2001 31' holiday rambler 10K lbs house on wheels!

  15. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kennedy View Post
    Mark,

    I'd be curious to see what kind of empty mpg you can get running 65mph or less.
    I will try to get those numbers. Its not often to find any of the trucks running any distance empty, without a trailer behind them - but it does happen from time to time. Mostly those miles fall on the shoulders of my wife's Pacifica, when we run to Iowa to visit family.
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  16. #36
    Join Date
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    Allentown, PA
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    1,355

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    Even though I still got one of those old 6.5 dinosaurs, I've been following this thread - great work, Mark!

    Just a quick comment on enclosed trailers vs boats. I had a chance to pull a friends enclosed trailer - which weighed about 20% more than the boat I had at the time. I did a "TDP Pull-Off" type test - on the same hill that I always use. The numbers I recorded were virtually identical to the numbers I recorded with the lighter boat. Boats are hydrodynamic, not aerodynamic. In additon to what John said, don't forget about the rear end - the back of a vehicle has more to do with dynamics than one might think.
    1998 K2500 Suburban 6.5L TD 3.73 rear, Ron Schoolcraft 18:1, Kennedy ECM & IC, Timing gears, Splayed main caps, 3.5" Kennedy Exhuast/No Cat, K&N Filter, Boost/Tranny Temp/EGT(Pre Turbo), Ceramic-coated Manifolds, 195 Stat's, 265/75's (VSSB Adjusted) 7,000lbs (on a scale) Remote Mount Oil Filter, Remote Oil Pressure Sensor

  17. #37

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    Air resistance, especially on windy days, plays a huge part in mileage...yesterday I helped a friend move an oversize building and while it wasn't heavy, it was a huge air-brake and I kept looking to see if my parking brake was left on, or a problem with the brake controller...it was that noticible.
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Lubbock,Tx.
    Posts
    162

    Default True Story

    I'll never forget my first experience pulling a trailer. My wife and I went to Amarillo,Texas looking at RV's and found a little used 19.5' Dutchman TT that we really liked, negotiated a deal and bought the trailer a reciever insert and ball. After being schooled on the trailer workings and hooking up the lights we took off for the trip back home to Lubbock. Driving around town (TV a Suburban with a 5.7) I proudly remarked to my wife that I couldn't even tell it was back there! Well things changed when we hit the interstate and a little wind, I couldn't believe that the little trailer was so hard to pull. After a few miles I decided that something had to be very wrong; what was it I wondered, and then it hit me that the trailer brakes had to be engaged, uhuh that had to be it! I'd verify the probably smoldering brakes, turn around and go back to the dealership, chew them out for not checking the trailer out, have them fix it and then have an enjoyable drive back home!
    I pulled off on the side lane and stopped, got out noticing that thankfully there was no smoke coming from the wheels and crawled under the trailer. I very very carefully so as to avoid being burned touched the brake drum, no heat? Oh it must be one of the others I assumed and moved to the next, not, and then the embarassment of my ignorance and having to tell the wife that there was nothing wrong when I had so adamently claimed that there was. My first wind load learning experience.
    If a very small wind could power the old massive sailing ships across the seas, it should not come as much of a surprise how much power it takes to pull a sail behind your truck.

    Randy
    2011 Chevy 2500HD LML
    Red with Dark Cashmer Light Cashmer
    Superglide 5th wheel hitch
    Bed Rug
    Jack Rabbit Full Metal Jacket bed cover
    Aries 4" oval step rails

    LBZ now lives in Wisc.

  19. #39
    Join Date
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    I used to have an Iveco Z220 (cab over euro diesel) that had a 120HP Fiat NA engine. Sweet runner, just be sure to plug it in. Not very powerful but it got the job done.

    I buily a 16' flatbed with a receiver hitch right in the headache rack that I used to lock on small trailers. What we would do is run to Elkhart with the snowmobile(s) on the bed of the truck, unload and have a 6x12 enclosed set on the bed and pick up a larger car trailer and load the sleds inside. Worked very well BUT it did not work worth a damn if I took the 6x12 off the bed. The wind regrouped behind teh cab and the swirl would hit the front of the trailer giving me all kinds of grief.
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Morrisville, VT, USA
    Posts
    2,399

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    A guy from OR pulled into the Hidden Valley Ranch campground in Deming, NM, last week, on a particularly windy day, pulling a big, 34 ft trailer with slides behind his 06 Dodge, Cummins 6 sp manual, dually, WITH an 18 ft deep-V boat mounted face foreward and the prow way up over the cab!
    I asked him about the wind, and he said that side winds didn't bother him much, but his mileage was cut WAY down. Makes sense. I caught a head wind, myself, coming from Columbus, NM, over to Douglas, AZ, and noticed the throttle opening under foot, all the way. Next day, going from Bisbee to Sierra Vista, in much hillier terrain, noticed a BIG differerence in the trottle opening to get the job done. Little, or no head wind. Lots of times, a steady side wind will feel like a head wind, to me. Jean and I noticed this a lot, back in 85, when we bicycled from Portland, OR, back to Vt. Took 3 hours to ride 17 miles in eastern MT, one afternoon, in a bad wind coming out of the North!
    Dick Wells
    2008 Jaco Seneca 35' motor home (Kodiak 5500 chassis). Pulling 18' Wells Cargo enclosed trailer, with 2016 Miata in it.

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