Died like it was turned off

**ccc** · 07-05-2012, 07:38

As I speak, my 1997 K1500 6.5S model is sitting on the side of the road. The truck started hard as usual, ran just fine as usual for about five miles then the motor died as if you had shut off the key. I ran the codes and I have a code for a high turboboost (have had that for a while) Egr code (have the egr blocked) but there is one code I haven't seen; it is a code for a high timing readout. don't remember exactly what the number was. I changed the fuel pump fuse, checked the fuel solenoid fuse. I also tried a spare FSD, turns over fast but doesn't even act like it is getting fuel. That is all I was able to do on the side of the road. Any suggestions?

**greatwhite** · 07-05-2012, 08:59

First off let me say; bummer.

It's never a great feeling when you vehicle leaves you stranded.

You're fairly limited on what you can do by the side of the road.

Swapping the pmd/fsd is the usual quick fix, but youve already done that.

The codes for timing can be related to the pmd, but as mentioned, you've tried that.

Timing could also be an optical sensor or a crank sensor, not something you can adress on the side of the road very well and would be a shot in the dark without more troubleshooting first. Air in the fuel can also cause timing faults related to the optical sensor. Again, not easily dealt with by the side of the road. The actual code it threw would be helpful.

With the high boost code I'm assuming you're running a mechanical wastegate control. But that's not really relevant to your immediate problem.

Next I would try cracking an injector line nut to see if fuel is making I there. If no fuel I would check the fuel shut off solenoid to see if it is working. If the solenoid fails it cuts fuel to the pump immediately.

If the shut off solenoid has failed, you can remove the pintle off the end and thread it back in. The truck will run, but you should only drive it home. An electronic 6.5 should shut off with the key and not run away, but if the fuel delivery solenoid on the pump should fail open, you don't have a fuel shut off solenoid to kill it.

It's really should be a just a one time "get you home" fix.

You're pretty limited to what you can trouble shoot on the side of the road. If these quick things don't get it running, you're probably looking at a tow bill to get it home.

Then you can get into checking fuel lines, grounds, etc...

Good luck getting it running.

**ccc** · 07-06-2012, 11:56

Oh boy. I ended up having it towed to a shop since I was in a suit but I got a call today telling me they wouldn't work on the truck! This, despite the fact that they have changed the oil, they said they forgot it was a diesel!!!! When I called them and told them it was down they asked what it was and I said a 6.5 detroit, I guess I should have added diesel. Anyway, I am going to tow it home with a chain and a bar in a bit. At least I will have it home and can start working on it here. I will start with the fuel shut off valve (there) and see if that does it. If not, I will need some serious help here. Thanks for your help greatwhite.

**greatwhite** · 07-06-2012, 12:00

Quick note for you; don't turn the key on with the shutoff solenoid removed or the lift pump will pump fuel out through the hole in the ip.

You can pull the pump fuse or unplug the pump electrical connector if you want to see if the plunger/pintle opens with key on power.

I would suggest sliding under the truck and unplugging the lift pump as the most certain way.

**ccc** · 07-06-2012, 18:52

Okay Greatwhite, I got her towed home (lots of fun at 105 degrees!) at least it's home with no excitement! I pulled the fuel shutoff solenoid and placed contacts on the plug with a multimeter. With the multimeter turned to Ohms, the needle was all the way to the left until I completed the contact, at which time the needle went to the far right, which, if I read this right says 0 Ohms. As you can see I am not very competent with a multimeter! Encouraged that I may have found my failure, I placed small clips on each terminal plug of the solenoid and energized them to the battery and got....Nothing! I think that sounds good right? SO, at this point, my plan is to buy a new solenoid and see if she starts up. Let me know if it appears I did the Ohm test right. Thanks for the help and let me know your suggestion.

**greatwhite** · 07-06-2012, 19:03

Originally Posted by ccc

Okay Greatwhite, I got her towed home (lots of fun at 105 degrees!) at least it's home with no excitement! I pulled the fuel shutoff solenoid and placed contacts on the plug with a multimeter. With the multimeter turned to Ohms, the needle was all the way to the left until I completed the contact, at which time the needle went to the far right, which, if I read this right says 0 Ohms. As you can see I am not very competent with a multimeter! Encouraged that I may have found my failure, I placed small clips on each terminal plug of the solenoid and energized them to the battery and got....Nothing! I think that sounds good right? SO, at this point, my plan is to buy a new solenoid and see if she starts up. Let me know if it appears I did the Ohm test right. Thanks for the help and let me know your suggestion.

If I understand you correctly, you put 12v to the solenoid and it didn't move?

If yes, then a failure ofthe solenoid is highly likely.

If you want to confirm the solenoid is your problem, simply remove the pintle on the end of the rod and screw it back in to the ip.

If you try to start the truck and it fires up, your solenoid is definitely toast...

**Robyn** · 07-07-2012, 07:20

I asgree, that if the solenoid does not move when 12V is applied, then the solenoid has failed.

I do not recommend trying the solenoid without the pintle ! ! ! !
The shut off solenoid is the only shut off safety between you and a complete runaway should there be another issue.

Get a fresh solenoid and replace the failed one.

be safe and good luck.

Missy

**ccc** · 07-07-2012, 20:50

Thanks greatwhite and Robyn, I couldn't find a fuel shutoff solenoid in town so I ordered one online. I should have it in five to seven days, I will update you when I get it put on. Thanks for all your help.

**ccc** · 07-11-2012, 20:58

Okay, not good news. I changed the fuel shutoff solenoid but the truck didn't start. I cracked a fuel line at the injector and it was dry. I then made sure I had fuel coming out the top side of the fuel filter, all good. I checked to make sure the new solenoid was energizing, and it is. I unpluged the optical sensor (seems like I read here that someone suggested that) and finally I got some fuel out of the cracked line. It could be coincedence. I ran the codes and they are, 0236, 0238, 0380 and 0406. I am wondering if the truck sucked all the fuel out of the pump when the fuel shut off valve failed and if so, would that make it hard to reprime? I finally ran the batteries down so I quit. Any help is appreciated, I have no idea where to go from here.

**greatwhite** · 07-12-2012, 01:36

It can be a beotch to prime a pump and the lines after a "run dry" scenario.

Is it running at all?

If not and given your description, I would lean toward air stil in the pump and lines....

I haven't looked up your codes so there could still be a clue in those.

**ccc** · 07-12-2012, 05:59

No the truck is not running at all but your assessment is really good news. I will crack a few more lines and see if I can get fuel to weep. Thanks greatwhite for staying with me.

**greatwhite** · 07-12-2012, 07:11

Just be careful on that starter.

Short crank times, lots of cool off time.....

Or, pull out the glow plugs. Not necessary but it will make it easier and faster to turn over.

I wouldn't recommend pulling the plugs if they aren't relatively new (like a couple months new). Break one and you life get a bit more miserable.

You don't need that right now.

Don't be surprised if it runs like crap for a minute when you get it started. It will be purging air for a few turns before it clears up if you have a lot in there....

**DmaxMaverick** · 07-12-2012, 10:19

If the ESS (Engine Stop Solenoid) failed, the pump wouldn't "dry up". It would just shut off, or stay shut off, with no fuel flow, or would stay running (DB2) or have fuel available to run (DS4) if it failed open (stuck open). A dry pump can only be caused by a loss of fuel supply (replaced by air), or a failed IP. Since it's a DS4, turning off the key stops the fuel solenoid (fuel meter solenoid), as well as closes the ESS. If the ESS failed, the engine would (should) still stop with key off. On a DS4 fuel system, the ESS is only a secondary engine stop method, and a backup in case the pump/PMD fail to full fueling (runaway engine), as the PCM will close it at maximum engine overspeed (about 3800, IIRC).

If you only messed with the ESS, you may have gotten some air in the pump, but certainly not enough to dry it up. There should have been enough fuel remaining to get it started and clear out. If you aren't getting fuel to the cylinders now, something else is wrong. Dead pump, PMD, fuel solenoid (meter, not ESS), or control circuit.

**ccc** · 07-12-2012, 12:53

Dmax, you have voiced my fears,but it is what it is. The truck was running great until this event. I don't know how a ds4 dies but I had this truck over at the vo-tec school and supposedly they rebuilt everything, including having the pump rebuilt by a competent shop. I gave them $6,500 just for parts! That was about 5 years ago, but only about 15,000 miles on the truck since. Problem is, I don't know what they really did. The guy in charge was fired over something but no one would ever say what. SO I don't really know what I've got. The codes don't tell me what I should do either. I did plug in a proven pmd. I have a spare computer that has the exact same no's, don't know if it is good, came from a bone yard. Should I try that? If I crack two or three lines and get fuel, does that mean the pump is okay? This is a primary vehicle and I really need it badly, I just don't know what to do next.

**DmaxMaverick** · 07-12-2012, 14:09

I dunno. I suggest going back to the diagnostic process, from the start, without any assumptions. Eliminate components/systems as appropriate.

**ccc** · 07-13-2012, 11:27

This makes no sense. I took my time and retested the old fuel shutoff valve and it is definitely dead, but when I put the new one on, it didn't start. I spun the motor over in 15 second intervals 15-20 cycles. When I started yhete was fuel viming out the injector lines. I now have a dribble with the lines loosened, but I notice the glow plugs only energize for about a second now.

**ccc** · 07-13-2012, 19:42

Okay folks, I need some direction. First a recap; driving down the road sixty mph, the truck died like you turned off the key. It didn't miss, it didn't cough, it just quit running. I suspected a fuel shutoff solenoid because I put a used one on a couple of years ago. After the truck was towed home, I tested the shutoff solenoid and it was indeed dead. I purchased a new one, put it on and the truck still won't start. SO, tonight, I hard wired the fuel pump (on the frame) to make sure it was giving enough pressure, I hard wired the glow plug controller and put in a monitor bulb that would only come on when the plug side of the controller was engergized. I then took the pintle out of the old solenoid and put it in place of the new one. I engerized the new one to make sure it was functioning properly (it is.) I even started the fuel pump with the solenoid out to watch the fuel flow and sure enough it pumped a bunch of fuel out. I put the fuel shutoff solenoid back in place and plugged it in. I also tested the connection to make sure it was staying energized while the key was on. I replaced the pmd with a proven pmd. Each time I made a change I would turn the truck over for 15 seconds with two injector lines cracked. I tried it with the optic sensor unplugged and with it plugged in. I am getting a little fuel out the first line on the drivers side but nothing out of the third line same side. I am useing th glow plugs for 8 seconds and keeping the frame mounted fuel pump on when I turn the truck over. So my question is, what am I missing other than the IP. Is there any sensor that would prohibit the truck from metering fuel other than the PMD?

**DmaxMaverick** · 07-13-2012, 21:05

OK...Keep it simple. Three things are needed to fire it off. Heat, air and fuel. Air shouldn't be an issue, as it will fire even with a plugged filter or very little air in any case. If you verify you have enough heat (glow plugs, make sure they are getting hot enough), that leaves fuel. The pump is delivering some, so its getting fuel, and commanding delivery. It may be an airlocked system, which will take some time to get enough fuel to the cylinders. Focus on that. If it doesn't improve, the pump is shot (unable to pop the injectors).

**greatwhite** · 07-14-2012, 03:00

If your shut off solenoid is working and the lift pump is also working, I'd say you still have air in the lines/pump.

The fact your shutoff was dead leads me to believe you're still got air in the line as opposed to a terminal injector pump. Most likely an introduction of air at the shut off solenoid point once removed. It's not common for that to happen, but I've had it occur once on my DS4. Can make you chase your tail for a while......

However, it is possible the pump has packed it in. But it would be a very unusual coincidence for the shut off to fail, the truck to stop and have a simultaneous IP failure to the point where it won't run. That would be one heck of a bad stroke of luck.

Keep bleeding, it can take a while to get enough air out for it to kick. You have to remember that the PCM is only commanding around 6 mm^3 of fuel at the idle setting (stomping on the throttle won't change that with the engine off in case you're wondering). That's not much volume of fuel and will take a fair bit to fill the injector lines all the way to the injectors.

Once it does, it will probably run like crap (shake, shudder, miss, etc), but it will eventually purge the remaining air once it starts.

Remember; careful with that starter and those batteries......don't burn either out or the repair bill gets bigger. Make sure the starter is off more than it's on (ie: duty cycle) and the batteries get recharged at regular intervals.

Good luck.

**JohnC** · 07-15-2012, 09:18

Have you checked the fuse? A bad shutoff solenoid might have blown the fuel solenoid fuse. (It sort of doesn't fit with your scenario, but is an easy and cheap thing to do).

Also, can you put your hand on the fuel solenoid (not shutoff solenoid) in the rear of the pump and see if you can feel it clicking, once for each cylinder firing.

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