Died like it was turned off

**DmaxMaverick** · 08-11-2012, 16:33

Well, was just having a similar conversation with a friend, with a computer (PC) issue. During a troubleshooting process, so many things were changed there's no way to know what actually worked, if it did.

A bad OPS (or fuel supply failure) won't cause a DTC.

Back to square one. Put everything back the way you found it, at the time it quit. Change one thing at a time. Begin with the free/cheap stuff.

Free = Not throwing parts in you don't already have.

Spare PMD's = Free.
PMD extension = Free (with and w/o). Try connecting the PMD(s) to the original pump harness, first.
ESS = Free to test, disable, etc. (remove the turbo inlet pipe and have a wood block, etc. handy to shut off the air, if necessary, or a fuel valve at the inlet, or both).
Spare PCM = Free.

Another thing to add to your "free" (or almost) testing process, is the fuel supply. Use an inline filter (inexpensive gas filter is OK, for testing), place it on the outlet of your marine tank, elevate the tank (about cab-roof high), prime the line, install the line to the IP inlet. This will give you a positive fuel supply, not requiring a pump, and eliminating restriction issues. Once the problem is identified, restore the original fuel supply and verify its operation. Deal with it independently, as necessary.

Charge batteries, as necessary.

Verify Glow Plugs are getting power, and getting hot. Bypass the controller, if necessary.

Each step, one at a time, in no specific order. I would start with the fuel supply (elevated tank), then work your way through the electrical, starting with the ESS.

**JohnC** · 08-11-2012, 18:50

I don't suppose there's any chance you have a blown fuse from the original failed solenoid, is there?

**ccc** · 08-13-2012, 07:21

Good news - I think. Short story is, I got the truck started. As Dmax suggested, I went back to square one. Put the marine tank on the roof and ran a poly hose to the IP inlet (with an inline filter in between.) I then began cranking the motor watching to see if I was getting fuel flow. After four or five cycles without fuel flow, I changed PMD's on the remote harness. When neither pmd seemed to make a difference, I took the harness off and plugged the pmd that is on the side of the pump back in. I noticed fuel starting to move. After about four cycles, I began to get white smoke out the tail pipe. I charged my glow plugs (I have them on a manual cycle) and the truck started right up. SO now I need to find out if the pump is weak (I am using the thickened fuel Dmax suggested) or the pmd wasn't working properly, or I have an electrical issue. I also have the fuel shut off removed, that needs to go back on and I have an air leak in the fuel line system somewhere between the lift pump and the IP. All in all though, it was great to hear her run. I am tempted to drive her around on the farm with the tank on the roof just cause I can! Thanks to everyone on this site for the help. We live outside the city in the country. I need this 4wd if we get any snow and I have to have a pickup to haul wood (that is our primary heat source) so for us, a truck is not a luxury (even a 97) it is a neccessary tool. So you can see how important your help has been and will continue to be. Thanks for being so willing to share your knowledge and support. What would have been impossible without your help has been a learning experience. At some point, I am even going to try and change the IP, I just hope I can put it off till next spring.

**JFerg65** · 08-13-2012, 07:59

it sounds like it may be that ip extension harness. Please let us know if you get it narrowed down any further.

**ccc** · 08-13-2012, 08:35

Yep JFerg65, I will. I am going to order a new PMD so I have a known good one that I can test against. It may be a couple of weeks before I can do so but I will let everyone know the results as the truck gets put back together.

**DmaxMaverick** · 08-13-2012, 09:15

That's great!!!

But.....SLOOOOOW down, just a bit. BEFORE you go digging for problems you may not have, leave everything JUST AS IT IS, except the fuel supply. Restore it to original, and repeat. If it runs, and continues to run when you open the water drain (T-valve near the thermostat housing), then you have a good fuel supply. Improve that later, if necessary, but for now address ONLY the problems you have. If it continues to run, and restarts after a hot shutdown (off for only 5 or so minutes), your IP is probably OK, at least for now.

Next, work your way back to a completely original setup, and address the PMD extension issue. Having a remote PMD does you no good, if the extension harness is junk. Also, you're better off using the PMD on the pump, than trying to run with one off the pump, inside the engine compartment (except for diagnostic purposes).

Keep it simple, and try (hard as it may be) to not look for problems you don't have. If you do, you'll find some, whether or not they actually exist (which is probably why this has taken so long to hear that sweet music).

**ccc** · 08-13-2012, 09:32

Yeah, Dmax, I probably did compound my problems, so I hear ya. I plan on leaving the pmd on the pump as the controlling unit, I just want to get a spare so I have one available in the event the pump mounted one fails. It seemed like a good idea to see if the truck would run on that set up before I was sitting on the side of the road. If it did, I was going to put it back to orig and sock the remote harness and spare pmd away in the tool box for that inevitable day. I will do as suggested regarding the fuel flow test and keep my fingers crossed the IP is good. I certainly don't want to put an IP on if I don't have to (not even sure how I would pay for it!) But the help I recieved here makes it seem possible if the worst happens! Which PMD do you consider the best?
I won't start the whole thing over, you have been incredibly helpful and I don't want wear everyone else out either but I have to work on the fuel system. Even before the failed shut off solenoid I was having a fuel issue with "Silver stuff" in the fuel.Fortunately the filter is catching it. It looks like slivers of silver paint and there is quite a bit of it. I think the fuel line is coming apart. I am going to replace the tank and fuel line and be done with it. I have found a distributor that sells 12v heat cable that I am going to wrap around the fuel line for cold weather so I might as well do that while I have the bed off.

**JFerg65** · 08-13-2012, 11:24

I am a fan of the flight systems PMD. You may also see them labeled D-Tech. If I'm not mistaken flight systems is the manufacturer. I have purchased several items from PMDCABLE.com and have been extremely pleased with the service. shipping is fast and prices are good as well.

It sounds like you are close to getting this resolved. I agree with DMax.... take it slow and now replace one thing at a time working backwards with the free easy stuff first.

Keep us in the loop and good luck

**ccc** · 08-13-2012, 16:27

Just when I thought we could close this thread! I went to start the truck when I got home and nothing. It isn't pushing fuel again. I had not touched it since I turned if off this morning when it started. The only difference is that I forgot to turn off the key last night so when I got in this morning, the key had been on all night. I don't have the fuel shut off solenoid on or the glow plug controller. Is there some electronic component that would have benefited by being on that long- heating up or something? I checked the grounds and they look okay but I will clean them. Other than that, what should I try?

**ccc** · 08-13-2012, 19:08

Not knowing what else to do, I ran the codes, I had 238,251,370,380 and 606. The metering code and PCM codes I don't recall having before. I pulled the glove box to check connections on the computer and they all seemed fine. I then cleared the codes and the truck tried to start. I then checked the computer again and it was pretty warm. That was the last time I could get it warm and the last time the truck tried to start. I put in my spare pcm (which I have never tried) and it didn't seem to make any difference. ????

**a5150nut** · 08-13-2012, 19:53

Charge up the batteries if you left it on all nite. It can sound like it is turning over but it requires 100 rpm cranking before the computer will let things work. I have replaced what seemed like good batteries just for this.

**ccc** · 08-13-2012, 20:03

a5150nut wrote, "charge up the batteries if you left it on all nite. It can sound like it is turning over but it requires 100 rpm cranking before the computer will let things work. I have replaced what seemed like good batteries just for this."

Great idea, will do, thanks.

**DmaxMaverick** · 08-13-2012, 21:05

Yeah, battery voltage (mentioned 20 or 30 posts ago). Low voltage and/or slow cranking makes for an unhappy computer, and not enough RPM to start. If batteries are questionable, they are actually at the lesser of the expense scale.

**ccc** · 09-11-2012, 18:25

Okay, it's been a while. But back at it. The good news is the truck runs - some times! The bad news is, it doesn't sometimes! With the fuel thickened and being fed from a gravity tank with no shutoff valve and back to the original FSD (pump mounted) the truck started and ran for about a minute before it shut off. Same codes as before. Truck restarted and ran until I shut it off. Hooked the fuel line back up and ran the rail pump until fuel came out the input line then put the line back on the IP. Truck started and ran (without the thickened fuel.) I let it run for about 5 minutes, shut it off and restarted it. Ran okay. Shut it off and let it sit for a bit, then it wouldn't start. Hasn't since. Not getting fuel again. Switched FSD's no difference. Not getting any white smoke out the tail pipe. Seems to be a wiring issue. Will keep you updated as the saga continues.

**ccc** · 10-01-2012, 19:06

Update; started from the beginning again... Think I may have two problems, a fuel delivery issue (junk in the fuel) I had an issue with what appears to be silver paint in the filter. Not sure what it is. A while back, I put a new line from the lift pump to the filter and from the filter to the IP and changed the filter. Wondering if somehow I got some past the filter to the IP filter? Also I am now getting a code 335. Crank position sensor A. I don't know what that means . When I energize the frame lift pump and let it run for about 15 seconds, then manually turn on the glow plugs for 8 seconds the truck immediately tries to start. I almost does. After that it doesn't. The batteries are fully charged. I will get this solved... I will. I will. I will..What do you think Dmax?

**phantom309** · 10-04-2012, 22:07

wiring from pmd to pump sounds suspect,.
has it got a noise filter harness on it if so unplug it and run the wires direct,.
almost like you have a worn/broken pmd wire somewhere,.
Kudo.s to you for your tenacity,.

Nick

**JFerg65** · 10-05-2012, 03:40

Phantom309, that is what I have suspected his problem has been from the get go. I haven't heard or may have missed if he ever disconnected the harness from the extension to check for corrosion on the pins. You are also correct in that it could be a bad wire in the harness.

I went through this with my 96 that I don't run in the winter to keep it out of the salt. I trouble shot for days before I finally thought to check the extension harness connections. It ended up being the short harness that comes off the IP. It could also be a bad connection were that short harness attaches to the pump, two stud connections and then the ground on top of the pump. All kinds of crap can get into the valley of the motor. $40.00 later and a few hours I was back up and running. I was fortunate, other than some wasted time once the truck was towed home It was a relatively cheap fix.

**ccc** · 10-08-2012, 18:42

Thanks guys for all the suggestions. Before I saw these I read a thread about the final screen in the inlet. I have a pump I procured from a boneyard so that I can look it over and see where things are located. I took the screen out of the inlet on the boneyard pump. I took the big screen off it to see what is under it as well. I then took the one off the IP on the truck and it looked clean. I cleaned it anyway, Including the little one on the bottom. I thought I would post pics of both so anyone with an issue there can see. I took it off with a ¾ crow foot socket. I put it all back together and it didn’t make a difference. I took the FSD extension off a while back and reconnected the harness to the FSD on the pump ( was good when I changed it) I have fuel to the IP, I have the original FSD reconnected. I have cleaned the grounds. Is there a way to test the continuity on the harness? 016.jpg

018.jpg

**JFerg65** · 10-09-2012, 04:51

At this point I don't think I would trust the FSD on the side of the pump even though it was working when you did the relocation.

I give you a lot of credit for hanging in there with this one. I'd pull the short harness coming off the pump check for continuity/corrosion.

The worst part of these types of issues is that most of the time they end up being something pretty simple once you narrow it down.

**ccc** · 10-11-2012, 17:47

Thanks JFerg65, I will check the connections for corrosion, it must be some kind of signal issue related to a continuity issue, I have eliminated the mechanical things, I think.

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