I bought an Optimizer NAVSTAR

[2INSANE]

"Everyone"? "Killed their motor with an HX35 while daily driving"? "Pulled the studs"? My BS detector is flashing...

Combustion pressure can be up to 3500-psi at full power. If the exhaust is clean, how can going from the stock 7-psi boost pressure produced by a GM turbo to an efficient 15-psi from an HX35 or even an efficient 20 from an HX40 hurt a 21.3 CR engine? By the way, I only advocate for 7-10-psi from the GM series of turbos, 15-psi from the HX35 - 20-psi from the HX40, all because of efficiency - cool boost and low backpressure. In gradation, anything over 7-psi boost pressure requires an intercooler and a performance exhaust system.

I'm putting a 1994 6.5TD Blazer back together right now that was a victim of too heavy a right foot while towing and an inefficient turbocharger for how this Blazer was being used - i.e. high EGTs due to a turbocharger with a too restrictive turbine/compressor (GM-4). The prior owner was also running a Turbomaster and a performance chip, and wasn't paying attention to the EGT/Boost gauges as the pistons melted around him.

Also, by the way... 18:1 pistons are only recommended for those who tow a lot or are running a boat. Not for daily drivers. 18:1 pistons allow people to add fuel and boost to make more power (build more combustion pressure), while giving the engine more heat rejection capability. The Diesel Page has discussed all this to exhaustion in years past. In the tens of thousands of 6.5 owners I've communicated with over the past 25 years, I've only heard of maybe 1 -2 examples of pulled threads in the block deck, and this was due to a rotten block or damaged threads, and it happened during a head installation - not from turbocharging.

Final by the way... Some years ago I attended a local diesel dyno event where Heath's 6.5 shop truck was there to spin the rollers. That 6.5TD powered 1995 truck was running (or so they said) 21.3 Cr pistons, a Turbomaster on a GM turbo, his custom programming, propane injection, nitrous injection, water/meth injection and the kitchen sink.... I've heard thousands of diesel pickups run at dyno events - from lots of stock trucks to 1000-horsepower super trucks. That 6.5 sounded way-way different - raspy and scary - I stepped way back..., but it made 300 rear wheel horsepower for the 1-2 seconds it had to. Then, they drove it back to Washington state after the event, or at least that's what they said they were going to do as they left the event. I reported all this right here in The Diesel Page at the time. That engine didn't pull the head studs or bolts, or whatever the engine was equipped with. That was certainly no daily driver, and I sure wouldn't want to tow a 10K trailer out of the Columbia river gorge on I-90 with it - with all that stuff switched on.

“Everyone I’ve talked to” means just that. Not every hx35w 6.5 owner out there. Simply everyone I have talked to. I have not personally yet to find anyone that has driven their 6.5 with an hx35w that has not had problems while daily driving. If you go on YouTube, and search 6.5 hx35w swap and ask the poster years later if they still have it, their usual reply is they sold it because of too many problems or it blew up. Many individuals that I bought 6.2 and 6.5 parts off of, claimed the same thing about the hx35w.

I am not saying your information here on the diesel page is incorrect or misleading. The people I have talked to could have not had the proper upgrades to handle the hx35w and did things half assed. Currently, I am very happy with my GM1 turbo. It serves its purpose for my off road driving conditions and habits. I have most of the diesel page books and have used a lot of its advice which has helped a lot!

[arveetek]

In all my research, I have found the exact opposite - my findings have shown that the HX35 is one of the best, budget-friendly upgrades available for the 6.5L.

I am in the process of installing an HX35 on my 6.5L rebuild project. I will report back with findings when I am done.

Casey

[More Power]

“Everyone I’ve talked to” means just that. Not every hx35w 6.5 owner out there. Simply everyone I have talked to. I have not personally yet to find anyone that has driven their 6.5 with an hx35w that has not had problems while daily driving. If you go on YouTube, and search 6.5 hx35w swap and ask the poster years later if they still have it, their usual reply is they sold it because of too many problems or it blew up. Many individuals that I bought 6.2 and 6.5 parts off of, claimed the same thing about the hx35w.

I am not saying your information here on the diesel page is incorrect or misleading. The people I have talked to could have not had the proper upgrades to handle the hx35w and did things half assed. Currently, I am very happy with my GM1 turbo. It serves its purpose for my off road driving conditions and habits. I have most of the diesel page books and have used a lot of its advice which has helped a lot!

The problem in what you're presenting here is that a failure is blamed on the turbo, when it could very well be like the 6.5 I'm working on right now. The previous owner melted the pistons because of a performance program, a heavy load and not paying attention to the EGT. This engine had a GM-4 turbocharger. An HX35 would have helped the engine in that situation by moving more air - more efficient air/boost.

Too many people have too little knowledge of the 6.5, and then make some performance mod without knowing how that addition interacts with the powertrain. When a failure occurs, they place blame on the wrong cause - through ignorance.

One thing I noticed is that you haven't read the 6.5 thread I created a couple of months ago about my current 6.5 saga (I posted to that thread yesterday), nor have you read the 6.5 thread created by arveetek. They are interesting and valuable threads, but you haven't even looked at them. I suspect there are a lot of articles and forum threads here you haven't bothered to look at either. Nearly all of the work we do here is the result of documented testing, chassis dyno tests, loaded hill climbs (calibrated trailer weights, stopwatches and GPS data), documented engine builds showing exactly what is being used, and on and on and on... Real provable information... It appears unsubstantiated crap is more appealing...

[2INSANE]

The problem in what you're presenting here is that a failure is blamed on the turbo, when it could very well be like the 6.5 I'm working on right now. The previous owner melted the pistons because of a performance program, a heavy load and not paying attention to the EGT. This engine had a GM-4 turbocharger. An HX35 would have helped the engine in that situation by moving more air - more efficient air/boost.

Too many people have too little knowledge of the 6.5, and then make some performance mod without knowing how that addition interacts with the powertrain. When a failure occurs, they place blame on the wrong cause - through ignorance.

One thing I noticed is that you haven't read the 6.5 thread I created a couple of months ago about my current 6.5 saga (I posted to that thread yesterday), nor have you read the 6.5 thread created by arveetek. They are interesting and valuable threads, but you haven't even looked at them. I suspect there are a lot of articles and forum threads here you haven't bothered to look at either. Nearly all of the work we do here is the result of documented testing, chassis dyno tests, loaded hill climbs (calibrated trailer weights, stopwatches and GPS data), documented engine builds showing exactly what is being used, and on and on and on... Real provable information... It appears unsubstantiated crap is more appealing...

I have read your links you shared as soon as you post them! One thing I noticed that is lacking with those people’s builds that had problems with the Hx35w swap is they did not have an inner cooler. Do you think by adding an inner cooler with a gm turbo would render better performance to make it worth the upgrade of an inner cooler?

[More Power]

The GM turbos are best when run at 10-psi or below. At 10-psi, it is borderline whether an intercooler would justify the cost. It depends on what you're doing. If towing a lot, then perhaps yes. If just a daily driver, mostly unloaded, then no.

Things go upside down when inexperienced owners/drivers install a performance program/chip (or turn up the fuel-rate), push the GM factory turbo beyond 10-psi, then push it hard on the highway with a trailer - without an EGT gauge in play. A Holset HX35W set to produce 15-psi with an intercooler would likely save a good share of those engines, not be the cause of problems.

By the way, at the bottom of each forum thread is a list of every registered member who has read that thread. Your forum name isn't among those listed in the threads I mentioned.

[2INSANE]

The GM turbos are best when run at 10-psi or below. At 10-psi, it is borderline whether an intercooler would justify the cost. It depends on what you're doing. If towing a lot, then perhaps yes. If just a daily driver, mostly unloaded, then no.

Things go upside down when inexperienced owners/drivers install a performance program/chip (or turn up the fuel-rate), push the GM factory turbo beyond 10-psi, then push it hard on the highway with a trailer - without an EGT gauge in play. A Holset HX35W set to produce 15-psi with an intercooler would likely save a good share of those engines, not be the cause of problems.

By the way, at the bottom of each forum thread is a list of every registered member who has read that thread. Your forum name isn't among those listed in the threads I mentioned.

You are talking about threads outside of this thread? Lol! I thought you meant the threads you posted here. No I have not read them yet. I have been busy with doing a 700r4 swap. My th400 got toasted by this optimizer within a week after I got it going.

[DmaxMaverick]

....I have been busy with doing a 700r4 swap. My th400 got toasted by this optimizer within a week after I got it going.

Just read the bold parts.

[2INSANE]

Just read the bold parts.

LOL! I was waiting for someone to say something in that effect! Lol! The 700r4 I am putting in has already been rebuilt to handle the Optimizers HP and Torque. Right now, the shop has the np208 and they are building that up as well. Hope to be rolling again in about a month or so.

[DmaxMaverick]

I like the TH700R4. It's a good tranny, within its abilities. The 6.5TD is well above it's pay-grade, though. Getting it to live behind a N/A 6.2 requires some serious upgrades, and even then, it's sketchy. You can buy 4 TH400's for the cost of all the hard upgrades required of the 700.

[2INSANE]

I like the TH700R4. It's a good tranny, within its abilities. The 6.5TD is well above it's pay-grade, though. Getting it to live behind a N/A 6.2 requires some serious upgrades, and even then, it's sketchy. You can buy 4 TH400's for the cost of all the hard upgrades required of the 700.

I am feeling the financial pinch on my wazoo right now!

[2INSANE]

This article from the diesel page has helped a lot with my choice of the 700r4 swap and rebuild.

https://www.thedieselpage.com/article/lee700r4-1.htm

[2INSANE]

Scroll down this page till you see something like this image...



Every forum thread here has a list of those who have read that thread. The above image is for this thread.

The 700's locking torque converter and .71 OD makes the vehicle a lot more fun on the highway. My 6.2L Banks turbo'ed 1982 GMC saw a 5-mpg increase when going from a 3-speed to a good 700R4. Jim

I use the mobile version and do not see those statistics. I also read a lot of threads not logged in.

What upgrades did you do to your 700r4 to handle that additional banks power? I figure if a built 700r4 can handle the 6.2 with a sidewinder turbo, would it be safe to say a built 700r4 can handle a 6.5 with a gm turbo?

Also did you start a thread of the 6.5 with melted pistons?

Also I am buying back a Holset hx35w and a 6.5 oil pump gear drive with tach sensor on top. Between the Holset hx35w and Made in China Hx35w, do you have a preference between the two?

[More Power]

I use the mobile version and do not see those statistics. I also read a lot of threads not logged in.

What upgrades did you do to your 700r4 to handle that additional banks power? I figure if a built 700r4 can handle the 6.2 with a sidewinder turbo, would it be safe to say a built 700r4 can handle a 6.5 with a gm turbo?

Also did you start a thread of the 6.5 with melted pistons?

Also I am buying back a Holset hx35w and a 6.5 oil pump gear drive with tach sensor on top. Between the Holset hx35w and Made in China Hx35w, do you have a preference between the two?

My Daughter's 6.5 Blazer Project: https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/...Blazer-Project
Casey's 6.5 Project: https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/...in-cylinder(s)

A local transmission friend of mine built the 700R4 for me - for that 1982 GMC. He made it operate (shift scheduling) via internal hydraulics instead of requiring any electrical control. He also built it along the lines of Dr. Lee's 700. That said, the 700 is still not the best choice for towing heavy, but it can be used to tow if you're a little cautious. We did a story quite some time ago about a 1987 Banks 6.2TD Chevy Suburban that towed a 36' triple axle Airstream all over the US. That Suburban was equipped with a TH700R4.

Most here know of my resistance to Chinese made/copied parts. Use em if that's all that's available, but get the genuine article if you can.

[2INSANE]

My Daughter's 6.5 Blazer Project: https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/...Blazer-Project
Casey's 6.5 Project: https://www.thedieselpageforums.com/...in-cylinder(s)

A local transmission friend of mine built the 700R4 for me - for that 1982 GMC. He made it operate (shift scheduling) via internal hydraulics instead of requiring any electrical control. He also built it along the lines of Dr. Lee's 700. That said, the 700 is still not the best choice for towing heavy, but it can be used to tow if you're a little cautious. We did a story quite some time ago about a 1987 Banks 6.2TD Chevy Suburban that towed a 36' triple axle Airstream all over the US. That Suburban was equipped with a TH700R4.

Most here know of my resistance to Chinese made/copied parts. Use em if that's all that's available, but get the genuine article if you can.

Just read your daughters build. I read and followed Casey’s thread awhile ago with his 97 build and hx35w. Great stuff! The Holset hx35w and other parts I sold are on their way back! Might try the hx35w after I read your dyna testing results you shared. I really do enjoy buying good old used parts and refurbishing them. It gives that satisfied feelings of zen and bliss while saving butt loads of money! Ditching the vacuum controlled th400 will allow the deletion of the vacuum system from the 6.5 optimizer which will allow for a 6.5 oil pump gear drive with the tach sensor on top to get a better signal to the Phantom 2 tach gauge in the dash.

[More Power]

As mentioned before, the GM factory turbos do a really good job for those who don't tow much and run a mostly stock engine, and if the boost pressure is kept below 10-psi. An off-road 4x4 or grocery getter 6.5 would likely do best with a factory GM turbo. The Banks Sidewinder on a properly fueled 6.2L diesel, for example, would produce a max of about 10-psi. The Banks kit included an EGT gauge...

The Dodge 12-valve engines ran the factory calibrated HX35 with a max boost of about 15-psi. According to the compressor maps, the HX35 does well with a max of 15-psi (because of compressor/turbine efficiency) and an intercooler, which would work with a 21.3:1 CR 6.5 just fine along with some mild fueling mods (fuel-rate increase). An EGT and boost gauge are essential, along with the info on how to use them to protect the engine from excessive exhaust temperatures.

I plan to experiment with an HX35 on the Blazer's 6.5, maybe next year.

[arveetek]

That seems to be the same model of HX35 that I have! I wonder what the original application was? Perhaps an industrial engine? The stock Dodge/Cummins HX35's have two different mounting options for the wastegate: the first generation (1994-1998) have mounting bosses on the exhaust housing; the later generation (1998.5 - 2007) have mounting bosses on compressor housing. Yours and mine have neither. Yours appears to have a home-made waste gate of some sort. I ended up making a bracket to install a TurboMaster waste gate controller for mine. I'll upload some photos later after I get it all installed.

Casey

[Robyn]

Reading about the 700R4 tranny.

I have personally destroyed several of these tranny's.
They are not too bad when used with moderate torque and HP light rigs like Astro vans, S10 pickups or S Blazers.

If a TH 400 went away...the 700R is not the answer.

A 700R is very small inside. The input shaft is splined into an aluminum drum.....

These little tranny's are/were never meant to handle any serious ooooomph....

A TH400 when built to even stock levels that were common with the 6.2 or the 454 gasser will tolerate a lot of abuse......

When I here about 700R and 6.5 in the same sentence....I have to chuckle...

Been there done that...swept up the mess several times.....

Just curious ???? What went away in your 400 box ???

[2INSANE]

That seems to be the same model of HX35 that I have! I wonder what the original application was? Perhaps an industrial engine? The stock Dodge/Cummins HX35's have two different mounting options for the wastegate: the first generation (1994-1998) have mounting bosses on the exhaust housing; the later generation (1998.5 - 2007) have mounting bosses on compressor housing. Yours and mine have neither. Yours appears to have a home-made waste gate of some sort. I ended up making a bracket to install a TurboMaster waste gate controller for mine. I'll upload some photos later after I get it all installed.

Casey

I bought this Hx35w from a fellow member. He had it on a 6.5 diesel. He had many 6.5 diesels and parts and got tired of all the problems with 6.5 diesels and he did a Cummins swap. I then sold it to Bostic Motors along with a bunch of other parts and then I just recently bought it back. Lol!

Would love to see your turbo master pics to get ideas. I have a turbo master and might be able to modify it to the hx35w if I decide to go that route. Still on the fence from all the horror stories.

Reading about the 700R4 tranny.

I have personally destroyed several of these tranny's.
They are not too bad when used with moderate torque and HP light rigs like Astro vans, S10 pickups or S Blazers.

If a TH 400 went away...the 700R is not the answer.

A 700R is very small inside. The input shaft is splined into an aluminum drum.....

These little tranny's are/were never meant to handle any serious ooooomph....

A TH400 when built to even stock levels that were common with the 6.2 or the 454 gasser will tolerate a lot of abuse......

When I here about 700R and 6.5 in the same sentence....I have to chuckle...

Been there done that...swept up the mess several times.....

Just curious ???? What went away in your 400 box ???

Should have done a 4L80E, I know… but I am still kinda young and do not mind wrenching. Perhaps will blow the 700r4 while still in warranty and get it upgraded cheap while they rebuild it free minus the exception of buying the upgraded parts.

A almost complete th400 with the torque converter. I kept the 208 adapter.

[2INSANE]

I got the 700r4/np208 in. Driveshafts did not need to be shortened or lengthened. I had the trans shop do the tv cable adjustment. He took it on a test drive and said it’s working great. When I drove it home from the trans shop, 8 miles away, I noticed the 2-3 shift is very long. Takes forever for the trans to shift from 2-3. I researched that this problem is caused by improper band adjustment during rebuild. I’ll call the trans shop on Monday and see what they want to do. I want to get harder shifts on all gears to avoid clutch wear.

[DmaxMaverick]

A shift delay isn't a band issue. IIRC, the 2-3 shift isn't a band event (should be 2/4). It's a TV cable/valve, valve timing or governor issue. Most common is the WRONG governor or TV cable adjustment. If it's "slipping" into 3, it shouldn't be driven until corrected. If it has the Trans-Go kit installed (should have, if you want it to live), all shifts should be firm and decisive. There's only ONE way to adjust the TV cable. Anyone can do it if the procedure is followed, and it takes about a minute or two. If you don't know, get smart on it. Try that FIRST. If it requires further adjustment, something else is wrong. If the TV cable is incorrectly adjusted, you risk toasting the tranny in a hurry.