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Thread: 6.2 Redblock Theory

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2INSANE View Post
    Thanks! I am more excited about finally getting to do some chemical testing!

    When I inspect the Redblock, I will see if the crank turns, remove oil pan and check for cracks in the mains Pre purchase.

    Photo bucket is getting expensive so does anyone know of any good way I can share pictures free?
    You mean someplace other than HERE? You have an album, as a registered user, but storage is limited. If your uploads are relevant to TDP, that can be expanded as needed. Go to the top of the page and select Community/Albums. Create an album for you project, and upload your pics. Let me know if you get storage warnings.
    1985 Blazer 6.2
    2001 GMC 2500HD D/A
    dmaxmaverick@thedieselpage.com

  2. #42
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    I hope it pans out for you...
    If not i found the red block that has ventilation yesterday.Safely stashed inside the back of a burb.It's ventilated but just the oilpan from the outside.
    I will wait till i hear from your latest find.I was looking for a date code on it,any idea where it would be,Casting is a 660
    90 Chev 3500 c/c 4x4,6.2na,400 auto,4:10 gears.DSG Timing gears,main girdle, isspro tach, pyro,boost,oil and trany temp.Dual Tstats, High volume peninsular pump,on shelf, Custom turbo and intercooler 85%complete. Change of plans for the dually, it's going to get a Cummins. Both trucks are Blue 90 4x4 crews

  3. #43
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    I bought the complete Redblock from Idaho. I did a pre inspection on the webs. There is only 1 crack about 3/4” on one of the webs. Crank turned freely, compression felt good. 300,000 miles. I think I can fix this crack on the web with some high nickel welding Rod pending cylinder condition and could be a good candidate for a N/A build/Material Testing. I was able to talk him down some because of the crack. It was a long day driving in the rain to get this Redblock. 7+hours. I am pooped!









    I also have a lead on a crack free Redblock in Great Falls, Mt.

    But first goal is the Lab testing and now I can start doing that.

    Stay tuned!
    Last edited by 2INSANE; 05-29-2022 at 18:54.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmaxMaverick View Post
    You mean someplace other than HERE? You have an album, as a registered user, but storage is limited. If your uploads are relevant to TDP, that can be expanded as needed. Go to the top of the page and select Community/Albums. Create an album for you project, and upload your pics. Let me know if you get storage warnings.
    Thank you! Think I figured it out!

    Quote Originally Posted by Yukon6.2 View Post
    I hope it pans out for you...
    If not i found the red block that has ventilation yesterday.Safely stashed inside the back of a burb.It's ventilated but just the oilpan from the outside.
    I will wait till i hear from your latest find.I was looking for a date code on it,any idea where it would be,Casting is a 660
    The date should be next to the casting number (Driver Rear of block). You might have to wire brush the area off. If there is no date casting then there should be a stamped T next to the injection pump (Driver side) which I think also shows the production number from the assembly line. Also there could be this weird marking on the back of the block next to where the oil pump drive would be. On my 1983 6.2 Diesel, I remember seeing this weird marking on the block so I am not sure if it is irrelevant because it is rumored that some 1983 6.2 diesels were Redblocks but they were painted black.





    Last edited by 2INSANE; 05-29-2022 at 19:11.

  5. #45
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    DO NOT WELD THAT WEB

    Get a LOCK AND STITCH INSERT KIT
    This will fix the issue....

    That cast iron is well soaked in oil.

    You will not get it welded good....plus the heating is likely going to warp things and mess up the main line
    (1) 1995 Suburban 2500 4x4
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robyn View Post
    DO NOT WELD THAT WEB

    Get a LOCK AND STITCH INSERT KIT
    This will fix the issue....

    That cast iron is well soaked in oil.

    You will not get it welded good....plus the heating is likely going to warp things and mess up the main line
    I copy that. Looks like you have done this Lock N Stitch before…

    https://www.dieselplace.com/threads/...isited.273304/

    Have you had good success with it?

  7. #47
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    Oh yesssss
    I bought the kit with the inserts, the drill and the special tap.

    The inserts have special threads that are angled up and they "pull" pull the crack together.

    The idea is to stop the crack from spreading and to maintain proper torque on the bolt.

    IS IT PERFECT.....NO.....But this fix has a good track record.

    I have done a couple 6.5 bottom ends..

    Welding cast iron is a tough slog even when the casting can be spotlessly clean and contaminate free....

    Oil soaked casting is just a loosing battle......

    I assume the crack is in the outer bolt hole ???

    As you probably know...GM reduced the bolt diameter in the 6.5 outer bolts to 10mm from the original 12mm

    This does leave a bit more material in the area....but cracks still happen.
    (1) 1995 Suburban 2500 4x4
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robyn View Post
    Oh yesssss
    I bought the kit with the inserts, the drill and the special tap.

    The inserts have special threads that are angled up and they "pull" pull the crack together.

    The idea is to stop the crack from spreading and to maintain proper torque on the bolt.

    IS IT PERFECT.....NO.....But this fix has a good track record.

    I have done a couple 6.5 bottom ends..

    Welding cast iron is a tough slog even when the casting can be spotlessly clean and contaminate free....

    Oil soaked casting is just a loosing battle......

    I assume the crack is in the outer bolt hole ???

    As you probably know...GM reduced the bolt diameter in the 6.5 outer bolts to 10mm from the original 12mm

    This does leave a bit more material in the area....but cracks still happen.
    Yes, the crack is on one of the outer holes. Plain as day to see it. Didn’t even wipe it down.

    I do not plan on any more disassembly until I get lab results done. I have test tubes on the way for samples. I can tell you are extremely excited to see the results. :-D I am too!

    Do you still have any of the tooling stuff you used? That guide plate you made?

    Thinking ahead of the game…

    If I removed the larger exhaust valves from the Redheads and had a machine shop install them on a set of AMG heads, what are your thoughts about that? Lower Egts, faster spooling, less drive pressure? Etc… Of course I would put brass between the valves to compensate for the material loss with the higher chance of the AMG’s cracking.

    Also I do not like the idea of boring a 6.2 Redblock so 6.5 pistons could be installed. I can not seem to find any 18:1 6.2 compression pistons, so it seems Twisted Steel is my only option for 18:1 6.2 pistons. I can get ONS 6.2 pistons cheap and send them off to Twisted.

    I remember reading a thread here where members cut up 6.2 and 6.5 pistons to check thickness. I can’t seem to find that old thread.

  9. #49
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    Larger valves have some advantage with a N/A engine, but valve size is much less critical with charged induction. Whatever gain my may find certainly won't outweigh the loss of integrity and gain in complexity, not to mention the cost. It is simply not a viable trade. I seriously doubt that any gains would be measurable, if there are any at all. I think the GM engineers got this one right. The design concept of the 6.2L Diesel engine revolved around efficiency/economy (they are essentially one in the same). If the larger valves fit into that mission, they wouldn't have re-tooled to eliminate it. Any first-concept prototype is a guess. They guessed wrong, then moved it more toward practical. The Navistar/AMG engineers had the option and direction to "improve" head and valve performance, and opted to not. They had their reason(s), probably similarly to my reservations.
    1985 Blazer 6.2
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    dmaxmaverick@thedieselpage.com

  10. #50
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    Also, boring a 6.2L red block to 6.5L bore diameter isn't advisable. There was only a short run of 6.2L blocks that would be a candidate for that, and they were limited to 1991-1992 castings (as I recall, the crossover years between 6.2 and 6.5). The same block casting was used for the (soon to be obsolete) 6.2L before the introduction of the 6.5L. Again, the engineers are way ahead of you. The maximum recommended bore diameters ensure a margin of practicality, and considers most/all contingencies, such as core-shift and metallurgic deficiencies. Of course, there are "perfect" blocks out there, but who's to know which, or even how to identify them? The block you're considering at the moment is already defective, for reasons unknown.
    1985 Blazer 6.2
    2001 GMC 2500HD D/A
    dmaxmaverick@thedieselpage.com

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmaxMaverick View Post
    Larger valves have some advantage with a N/A engine, but valve size is much less critical with charged induction. Whatever gain my may find certainly won't outweigh the loss of integrity and gain in complexity, not to mention the cost. It is simply not a viable trade. I seriously doubt that any gains would be measurable, if there are any at all. I think the GM engineers got this one right. The design concept of the 6.2L Diesel engine revolved around efficiency/economy (they are essentially one in the same). If the larger valves fit into that mission, they wouldn't have re-tooled to eliminate it. Any first-concept prototype is a guess. They guessed wrong, then moved it more toward practical. The Navistar/AMG engineers had the option and direction to "improve" head and valve performance, and opted to not. They had their reason(s), probably similarly to my reservations.
    Bean-counters got involved and determined it is too much of a risk to put larger exhaust valves on and mass produce. I totally get it!

    But…

    With the better casting and alloys in the newer heads, I think it would be a fun experiment to put bigger exhaust valves in for sure and reinforce with the brass tubing between the valves.

    Even though GM was not willing to take that financial risk, I would would be :-D




    Quote Originally Posted by DmaxMaverick View Post
    Also, boring a 6.2L red block to 6.5L bore diameter isn't advisable. There was only a short run of 6.2L blocks that would be a candidate for that, and they were limited to 1991-1992 castings (as I recall, the crossover years between 6.2 and 6.5). The same block casting was used for the (soon to be obsolete) 6.2L before the introduction of the 6.5L. Again, the engineers are way ahead of you. The maximum recommended bore diameters ensure a margin of practicality, and considers most/all contingencies, such as core-shift and metallurgic deficiencies. Of course, there are "perfect" blocks out there, but who's to know which, or even how to identify them? The block you're considering at the moment is already defective, for reasons unknown.
    Totally agree! No point in boring a 6.2 into a 6.5! I have read horror stories of the failures.

  12. #52
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    What Maverick said
    The AMG heads are the chit man.

    The smaller valves will give you all the air you need with a huffer on the top side pushing on it.

    The 6.2 that was made on the 599 casting can go 6.5.....
    I have tried to bore a 6.2 out/....ONCE... .030" CALL IT GOOD.Maybe. 060" if there is not a core shift.....

    AS I have mentioned many times...I would not spend a dime on old 6.2/6.5 heads.

    AMG or if the bank account can't do them....Clearwater heads look good and the ones I had were fine..

    ZERO DUTY CYCLES......NO cracks....and other nasty things...
    (1) 1995 Suburban 2500 4x4
    (1) 1997 Astro
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robyn View Post
    What Maverick said
    The AMG heads are the chit man.

    The smaller valves will give you all the air you need with a huffer on the top side pushing on it.

    The 6.2 that was made on the 599 casting can go 6.5.....
    I have tried to bore a 6.2 out/....ONCE... .030" CALL IT GOOD.Maybe. 060" if there is not a core shift.....

    AS I have mentioned many times...I would not spend a dime on old 6.2/6.5 heads.

    AMG or if the bank account can't do them....Clearwater heads look good and the ones I had were fine..

    ZERO DUTY CYCLES......NO cracks....and other nasty things...
    Okay Okay Lol! I can’t say no to Missy Good Wrench. Your skills and knowledge is Legendary! You should have got a Nobel Prize for all the knowledge you have shared.



    I called Greg The Machinist in Hamilton as recommended. As soon as I mentioned “Cracked web bolt hole” “Lock N Stitch” Greg immediately said, “I am not interested in helping you with your project” and hung up on me. :-( Options are running thin…

  14. #54
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    If you are serious....Buy the insert tools and do it yourself

    I got a piece of 1/2" steel plate that fits the outside dims of the pan rail and located the center main bolt holes
    I drilled an access hole to get at each of the center main outer bolt holes.
    Located and drilled 4 holes on each side to access the pan bolts.

    Use the pan bolt holes to fasten the plate to the pan rail.
    I grabbed my mag drill .....Use a drill that will JUST slip into the existing bolt hole.....

    Locate the mag drill and then using the proper drill for the insert enlarge the hole.
    The drill MUST be deep enough to allow the special tap to get the new threads deep enough to allow the insert to thread in and end up FLUSH to a couple thousandths below the part line of the main web.

    Keep the mag drill on the plate in location.

    Remove the drill and insert the special tap.

    Carefully turn the tap (CHUCK) BY HAND to get it started well into the hole....Use a good tapping fluid on the tap....You can get tapping fluid at most major industrial supplies

    OR GO ONLINE. https://www.ebay.com/itm/40286985151...8AAOSwf6NfHyAC

    At this point....Remove the tap, the mag drill and the plate.

    Work the tap in carefully reversing it often ...You don't need to drown the block in tap fluid....but keep the working area wet with it...

    Remove tap, blow out the new threads and continue until you are deep enough....

    Wash the threads out with BRAKLEEN AND BLOW DRY.

    Lightly chamfer the hole (Break the edge a tiny bit) Take a stock bolt and thread on a nut...

    Jam the nut to the insert and then test fit the insert....YOU DO NOT WANT THE INSERT ABOVE THE PART LINE.....MUST BE FLUSH TO A THOU OR TWO BELOW...

    Once the insert can be tightened into hole properly GOOD AND SNUG

    Clean again (Both the hole and the insert) Dry good.

    Add Red Loctite to the insert and run that bad boy in the hole....Tighten....QUICKLY RECHECK TO BE SURE THE INSERT IS FLUSH TO BELOW THE WEB


    Allow the Loctite to set....a tad bit of heat will hasten the process.

    The new bolt hole will likely break through the web up near the inner area.

    Be sure to debur that hole...DO NOT LEAVE STRESS A STRESS RISER "SHARP EDGES"

    JOB DONE

    Make sure you do not get any loctite in the inner threads where the bolt goes..

    OK

    This has been a quicky "Machine shop 101 on how to do it"

    Do not try to do it free hand with a drill motor.

    A mag drill can be rented at a rental shop.

    I happen to own a big mag drill....

    Good to go...

    There should be a thread on TDP somewhere where I posted all the stuff I just reviewed.

    Maverick can probably find it for ya...
    (1) 1995 Suburban 2500 4x4
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    Wow! Soo much helpful info! Thank you Maverick and Robyn.

    If the Redblock theory of it having higher nickel content is true…

    Yes, I am serious about building up a 6.2 Red. I wouldn’t turbo and give serious power to a cracked one though…

  17. #57
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    This area has been discussed a lot over the many years I have been at TDP

    The entire issue of these cracks is one that we have beat on as much as the time they have been around.

    My PERSONAL theory of the WHY the blocks crack.

    Metallurgy may is likely part of it.....The torque stress placed on the block is different in a diesel engine than a gasoline engine....and herein likely lies the culprit..

    The 6.2/6.5 are so similar to the good old chevy V8 with a shallow skirted block and the main caps "unsupported"

    If you look at the Duramax V8 It has a deep skirted block and cross bolted main caps.

    The AMG P400 6.5 diesel has a herky girdle that bolts to the block, captures the main caps with cross bolts and the pan bolts to the girdle assembly.

    The Optimizer 6500 has thicker main webs, small outer main cap bolts and some other internal changes (I suspect a better alloy of cast iron than GM used)

    Why do some block go 250,000 miles and stay crack free ????? Gawd knows....Then some with less than 100K miles are a mess of cracks.

    Having worked in the machinery building bizz for many years...We always placed our iron castings out in the rain on the back lot to rust for 6 months to a year...Then before we machined them we sent them over the the foundry and had the "Stress relieved" This involved putting them in a huge oven and bringing the temps up to HOT....TO MANY YEARS AGO....Likely 1800 or so for a few hours and then they were allowed to cool slowly back to room temperature ...

    Then they were cleaned up, flashing removed and off to the machine shop.

    Prior to doing this "Stress relieving" we had castings that were moving all over when tools were laid to them....Tolerances could not be held and cracks were common in very short order IN SOME CASTINGS.....

    After the stress relief process....no more issues.

    All the razor sharp machined corners in the main web area is another issue......Dehorning (Removal of all sharp edges where cracks can start....break all sharp edges, lightly counter sink all holes ...Break the sharp edge)

    I am not sure how GM stress relieved their block...or if they even did/do.

    I have heard they chemically treat them.......?????

    Let them lay out in the mud for a few months, then cook them and allow all stress to normalize works...But it is not as fast as a quicky bath.....

    My grandfather had the first Scientific heat treating company on the Pacific coast back in the 1930's 40's
    My dad worked at the company for years and he explained a lot of the techniques to me over the course of my time learning the trade.

    MY OPINION

    The 6.2/6.5 blocks were subject to issues and the cracking was found on many blocks

    I suspect poor alloy, failure to stress relieve the castings properly and way too many stress risers.. (Sharp corners and such)

    If you repair your Red Block crack....it should be fine.

    After as many duty cycles that the block has had (Hot/cold) it is more than likely stress free by now....

    Once a crack starts....it will or can continue unless steps are taken to stop it....

    Ah yess.
    Many unanswered questions.

    Hope this helps.
    (1) 1995 Suburban 2500 4x4
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  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robyn View Post
    This area has been discussed a lot over the many years I have been at TDP

    The entire issue of these cracks is one that we have beat on as much as the time they have been around.

    My PERSONAL theory of the WHY the blocks crack.

    Metallurgy may is likely part of it.....The torque stress placed on the block is different in a diesel engine than a gasoline engine....and herein likely lies the culprit..

    The 6.2/6.5 are so similar to the good old chevy V8 with a shallow skirted block and the main caps "unsupported"

    If you look at the Duramax V8 It has a deep skirted block and cross bolted main caps.

    The AMG P400 6.5 diesel has a herky girdle that bolts to the block, captures the main caps with cross bolts and the pan bolts to the girdle assembly.

    The Optimizer 6500 has thicker main webs, small outer main cap bolts and some other internal changes (I suspect a better alloy of cast iron than GM used)

    Why do some block go 250,000 miles and stay crack free ????? Gawd knows....Then some with less than 100K miles are a mess of cracks.

    Having worked in the machinery building bizz for many years...We always placed our iron castings out in the rain on the back lot to rust for 6 months to a year...Then before we machined them we sent them over the the foundry and had the "Stress relieved" This involved putting them in a huge oven and bringing the temps up to HOT....TO MANY YEARS AGO....Likely 1800 or so for a few hours and then they were allowed to cool slowly back to room temperature ...

    Then they were cleaned up, flashing removed and off to the machine shop.

    Prior to doing this "Stress relieving" we had castings that were moving all over when tools were laid to them....Tolerances could not be held and cracks were common in very short order IN SOME CASTINGS.....

    After the stress relief process....no more issues.

    All the razor sharp machined corners in the main web area is another issue......Dehorning (Removal of all sharp edges where cracks can start....break all sharp edges, lightly counter sink all holes ...Break the sharp edge)

    I am not sure how GM stress relieved their block...or if they even did/do.

    I have heard they chemically treat them.......?????

    Let them lay out in the mud for a few months, then cook them and allow all stress to normalize works...But it is not as fast as a quicky bath.....

    My grandfather had the first Scientific heat treating company on the Pacific coast back in the 1930's 40's
    My dad worked at the company for years and he explained a lot of the techniques to me over the course of my time learning the trade.

    MY OPINION

    The 6.2/6.5 blocks were subject to issues and the cracking was found on many blocks

    I suspect poor alloy, failure to stress relieve the castings properly and way too many stress risers.. (Sharp corners and such)

    If you repair your Red Block crack....it should be fine.

    After as many duty cycles that the block has had (Hot/cold) it is more than likely stress free by now....

    Once a crack starts....it will or can continue unless steps are taken to stop it....

    Ah yess.
    Many unanswered questions.

    Hope this helps.
    How much material should I take off the web and main sharp edges? File or Die Grinder?

    How much should I chamfer the web/main bolt holes?

  19. #59
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    Break the edges at a 45 degree angle...1/32" wide is all that's needed.
    1/32" wide on the holes....Just touch the holes with a standard countersink in an electric drill

    The idea is to get rid of the SHARP corners...
    You can even do the head bolt holes in the block deck....Any bolt hole that has a sharp edge.

    Just break the stress riser....

    Will this solve all the ills...NOPE...But it will not hurt a thing.

    If you use a 1/32" ball bur in your dumore and carefully remove the sharp root in the block cut where the main caps sit "L" This L is the cut....make it so the corner is slightly round...and run the roundness off the edges.....Do not modify the actual register...The cap must be tight....

    A crack in this corner is not repairable
    (1) 1995 Suburban 2500 4x4
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robyn View Post
    Break the edges at a 45 degree angle...1/32" wide is all that's needed.
    1/32" wide on the holes....Just touch the holes with a standard countersink in an electric drill

    The idea is to get rid of the SHARP corners...
    You can even do the head bolt holes in the block deck....Any bolt hole that has a sharp edge.

    Just break the stress riser....

    Will this solve all the ills...NOPE...But it will not hurt a thing.

    If you use a 1/32" ball bur in your dumore and carefully remove the sharp root in the block cut where the main caps sit "L" This L is the cut....make it so the corner is slightly round...and run the roundness off the edges.....Do not modify the actual register...The cap must be tight....

    A crack in this corner is not repairable
    Oh thank you! Again sooo amazing of you to share your brain! I am loving it!

    I can tell you have a soft spot for the Redblock 6.2. I do too and think a lot of others do as well. :-D

    I have read somewhere, in some point of time that some machinists claimed that when they bored a 6.2 Red, they could hear the mill motor bog down a lot more then other 6.2 blocks. Like it was for sure a harder block then the others. I think this is where the nickel theory first started. Did you experience the same?

    Edit: Just found this post about the 6.2 Red in the diesel place.

    Mad (Sean) Max
    Joined Jan 25, 2009 · 9,602 Posts
    #15 · Sep 5, 2013

    Jdemaris used to comment that whenever he touched an angle grinder to a red block that the sparks were a different colour than later castings which led him to believe that the '82 did contain a different metallurgy, most likely higher nickel. But again, not really proof. They are sought after though.


    Just goes to show how others are assuming it has higher nickel content reinforcing the Redblock Theory…

    There are hundreds of posts out there with assumptions but no solid proof…
    Last edited by 2INSANE; 06-02-2022 at 21:53.

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