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Thread: DB2-4911 -the magic, the myth, the mystery

  1. #1
    gmctd Guest

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    The DB2-4911 (5088?) was the last mechanical injection pump upgrade for the 6.2-6.5 series. One late revision, indicated by Blue Label, corrected the hot-soak, warm-start problems in some aging pumps, where excessive clearance between head and rotor resulted in injection pressures lower than required down around 100 pump rpm.
    Early pumps were Black Label.
    Most warm-start problems proved electrical in nature - low battery(s), bad cable(s), worn starter bushing(s), bad fuel, etc.

    So, how does the 4911 compare with the 6.2 series pumps, and how can we tell the difference? Let's take the nomenclature on the tag -
    J2-DB2-831-4911-J and J5 DB2-829-4126-J
    The first two digits represent build date month and year. In this case, J is September, 2 is 1992, and 5 on the 4126 indicates it was built in 1995, as validated by the '95' casting mark.
    DB is for rotary distributor-type head, where each cylinder gets it's own injection port and pipe, supplied by single barrel.
    2 indicates two opposed pumping plungers, driven by steel rollers in ceramic pillow blocks
    8 indicates number of cylinders
    31 indicates 0.31" pump plunger diameter, used in the 6.5 pumps. 29 is 0.29" used in 6.2 pumps.
    4911 indicates specifications to which pump was built, J is assembly plant
    Also on label is inj pump serial niumber, and customer part number - GMC, Chev, Ford, etc

    Refer to the two drawings in the members area - DB2 injection pump cutaway - starting at input flange and working rearward to the distributor head.

    The input shaft rides in single needle bearing, with one seal toward engine, two seals toward pump. Driven counterclockwise by pump gear, this shaft drives the two-roller pump rotor inside the camring, where internal ramps force the rollers\blocks against the two pump plungers, creating the high pressure required for injection. An 8 cylinder engine requires 8 ramps.
    An arched leaf-type spring, adjustable by the fuel metering screw, limits roller\block travel and pump stroke.
    The rotor has two opposed pump discharge ports for transferring high pressure fuel into the radial charging passage

    A rotary valve in the head, actuated by the throttle-governor slide via the throttle shaft, meters fuel in the charging passage,
    When not powered, the fuel shut-off solenoid forces the rotary valve fully clockwise, blocking fuel flow.
    Fuel to each cylinder is not de-pressurized after injection, such that no time is required to re-pressure each pipe.
    A metered orifice setscrew controls housing fuel flow.

    The camring ramps, in conjunction with injector design, are designed to initiate injection slowly as cylinder pressure reaches combustion temperature, increase flow during combustion, then taper off fuel as oxygen is depleted.
    The 6.2\6.5 gained the reputation as the "smokeless Diesel" due to the success of the Stanadyne Roosa Master injection pump.
    The camring is rotated counter-clockwise for retard and clockwise for advance injection timing by the advance piston, operated by hydralic pressure from the pump.
    Manual control is via a cam on the throttle shaft forcing a rocker lever against a rod driving a servo valve spring. The servo valve unbalances end pressures on the advance piston, which then rotates the cam ring.
    Electrical control is via the HPCA (housing pressure cold advance) solenoid, which vents housing pressure to the fuel return line. This also offsets pressures on the advance piston, allowing it to force the camring clockwise, for cold advance.

    Rear of rotor shaft drives the four vane transfer pump. A transfer pressure regulator, adjustable, is located in the rotor shaft. A nylon filter screen is in the transfer pump housing.

    6.5 pump diferences

    Note: all internal parts are interchangeable between housings

    The 4911 aluminum casting is greatly strengthened in the flange to housing area, preventing housing movement caused by increased injection pressure forces.
    Camring ramps and timing changed to compensate for higher injection pressure
    Pump plunger diameter increased from 0.29" to 0.31" to supply increased volume at higher pressures
    Roller travel limit (fuel metering) spring increased in length allowing greater pump plunger stroke
    Head recieved two transfer channels
    Advance piston end caps reduced in length dimensions to permit longer piston stroke

    Note: as explained to me, while the 6.2 rotor and head may be used in clockwise or counterclockwise rotation service by flipping the camring, which is marked CW on one end and CCW on the opposite end, the 6.5 rotor and head contain timing differences such that they are specific to rotational direction.
    GM pumps are counterclockwise driven, IH (Ford) is clockwise; both used Stanadyne DB series pumps thru 1993.

    Governor weight retaining plate is notched, rotor recieved groove for ball, firmly locking plate to rotor, preventing wobble.
    Throttle guide stud is externally adjustable for governor tip-in.
    Throttle\governor slide assembly strengthened, recalibrated with internal spring
    Throttle return spring added to shaft inside housing.

    #1 injector line gets pressure pulse timing sensor screwed onto pump fitting, requiring shorter piping
    6.5 injector piping inside diameter increased

    In street terms, what's it all mean?
    The 4911 pump got the rotor\pump and head assembly from the 6.9\7.3 IH Navistar (Ford) engine injection pump, which required strengthening the aluminum pump housing for timing accuracy.
    To what end?
    More fuel with on time delivery, as required by the 6.5 turbo engines , with less wear on the camring and rollers.

    This info resulted from my tear-down and part-by-part comparison of 1982 -4126 (new), 1989 -4723 (rebuilt), and 1993 -4911 injection pumps, where I subsequently rebuilt the 4911 for my truck.
    I took my findings to an old hand shopowner with Bacharach flow bench, working on inj pumps and magnetos since 1947, for validation\confirmation\repudiation, and was offered a job, on the spot. Feel good time,, oh yeah!

    Was my investigation fun? Definitely.
    Educational? Well.....no use trying to tell me you can turn up my 6.2 pump and make it perform like a -4911. That Bacharach cannot test everything Stanadyne spec'ed.
    For me, the proof is in the putting, as it were.

    Confirmation, validation, and\or repudiation welcomed.

    jd

    [ 08-07-2004, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: gmctd ]

  2. #2
    CleviteKid Guest

    Thumbs up

    Hey there, jd,

    Thanx for your excellent in-depth explanation of what I have been feeling in the seat of my pants.

    I would recommend that Jim put this in the permanent reference section in the Members' Area of TheDieselPage.com.

    Keep on Truckin' ! ! ! !

    Dr. Lee

  3. #3
    britannic Guest

    Post

    Thanks jd! One point I got from your write up, is that the fuel adjustment on the rotor will act over all throttle positions and not just WOT.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    11,398

    Arrow

    I agree with the good Dr.,

    Bulletin boards can be useful tools for diligent forum participants to use for research, fact finding and problem solving. JD has always been a valuable addition to these forums, and I've thought several times over the past few years that some of what he (and others) have contributed here should be made more permanent.

    If JD wishes, I can help.

    MP

  5. #5
    britannic Guest

    Post

    JD: Your posting prompted me to compile a doc describing how the DB2 works. Feel free to critique and revise the following information which is based in part on your research and my own.

    We could combine this information with yours if you'd like, so it could be used in the reference section. If any members have images that could be used to enhance the information that JD and I have put together, it would be really appreciated.

    ==========
    How the Stanadyne DB2 Pump Works

    The Stanadyne DB2 rotary distributor pump has a single pumping element that feeds all injectors. The high pressure pumping action is carried out in a single barrel, which houses two opposing plungers operated by two rollers. These plungers are pushed together by a cam ring with internal lobes acting on the rollers and it is this action that pressurizes the fuel.

    The number of lobes on the cam ring corresponds to the number of cylinders in the engine, so each thrust of the plungers by a pair of cam lobes results in a pulse of fuel to one particular cylinder injector.

    The injection pump controls fuel delivery by:


  6. #6
    gmctd Guest

    Post

    Excellent write-up, Brittanic - you saved me the trouble of sectioning the rotor and head in order to determine correct transfer and injection pressure fuel flow through that convoluted orifice\passage arrangement.

    I do agree - your professional write-up should be more than combined with mine for accuracy. And, to think I was going to suggest, if you were willing, that you merely fill in the considerable gaps. Excellent work, man!

    Although, I do have some reservations that being "published" is going to wreak havoc with my shadetree reputation.

    Many thanks to Dr Lee and More Power for their appreciative words and recomendation.

    jd

  7. #7
    gmctd Guest

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    Wow!!! Just had a chance to actually read Brittanic's DB2 write-up.
    My hat(and I do wear a hat) is off to you, old son.

    (Hmmmmm....I hope I'm not gushing. I hate gushing!)

    All I have to say is, I'm proud to have had some small part in causing that excellent piece to be posted on the DP.

    Many thanks to More Power, Dr Lee, and all the Forum Moderators for keeping this site a fount of information, where knowledge is always used as a tool, rather than a weapon.

    jd

  8. #8
    britannic Guest

    Post

    Coming from you JD, your gracious remarks are kudos indeed - thank you! It goes to show that when we collaborate and cross check our info, the sum is more than the parts !

    I feel that your excellent write up on the 4911 vs. 6.2L pumps could be a separate reference, because it deals with much needed information on specific pumps, whereas my doc. is more generic - what do you think? More Power, Clevite Kid, any thoughts?

  9. #9
    gmctd Guest

    Post

    I agree - shave the rather sketchy 6.2 'operational bit' off my post, as it's no comparison to your professional write-up.
    The DB2-4911 comparison was the main reason for the inj pump post, to begin with, but I'm certainly glad it prompted you to do yours.

    For me, your post promises many troubleshooting directions.

    We, here in the colonies, salute you, O' Brittanic one!

    The rest is up to More Power, Dr Lee, and company.

    jd

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    343

    Post

    gmctd: You said:
    "#1 injector line gets pressure pulse timing sensor screwed onto pump fitting, requiring shorter piping"

    Can you explain this a bit further? What is this for? Mine has this and I always wondered why it was there. Thanks.
    Randy
    2006 GMC 2500HD Duramax Allison Crew

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
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    The Netherlands
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    I do have a leftover pump to take appart and make pictures if you want to be even more explicit.

    Let me know,

    Peter.

    PS its mighty fine work you did!
    '85 CUCV blazer 6.2 twin turbo diesel (300 HP ), 4L80E with PCS trans controller '64 F350 tow truck (restoration project)

  12. #12
    britannic Guest

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    Peter: that would be awesome, I know for a fact that both JD and myself would be more than appreciative as well as the rest of the DP community - thank you very much for joining in the work on these docs!

    If you could get close ups (assembled and disassembled if possible), please, of the hydraulic head, components (especially the cam ring and transfer pump vanes), throttle assembly and light load advance cam, housing internals, including solenoids etc.

    This is truly becoming a team effort - thank you!!

  13. #13
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    As soon as I find the time I'll get started and mail you the pictures

    Peter
    '85 CUCV blazer 6.2 twin turbo diesel (300 HP ), 4L80E with PCS trans controller '64 F350 tow truck (restoration project)

  14. #14
    britannic Guest

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    Now I'll be cheeky and ask if there's any chance of some pictures of your twin turbo set up please?

  15. #15
    Dieselboy Guest

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    I finally got a chance to read y'alls writeups. I'm looking forward to taking apart my spare pump, and getting to put into practive what I've read.

    I had my pump rebuilt, and the only internals I've seen were those related to adjusting the fuel rate. Pictures will be a great help.

  16. #16
    gmctd Guest

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    Excellent, Peter! Pictures do make an article work. Hopefully, though, not at the cost of a valuable spare, where Diesel parts are likely very scarce. Thanks much - and I, too would like to see pictures of your twin-turbo configuration.

    78CHEV The Timing Pulse Sensor senses the #1 injection pulse, and can be used for dynamic injection timing with a clamp-on probe and meter designed for that purpose.

    IH Navistar (Ford) placed their sensor at the injector, making the task of attaching the clamp much easier.

    jd

    [ 09-18-2003, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: gmctd ]

  17. #17
    Join Date
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    No this pump is realy a left over I bought for experimental purposes.
    I'm working on getting TTD pic's published some were, but if you can't wait sent me an E-mail and I return some pics

    pjbierman@wanadoo.nl

    Peter
    '85 CUCV blazer 6.2 twin turbo diesel (300 HP ), 4L80E with PCS trans controller '64 F350 tow truck (restoration project)

  18. #18
    gmctd Guest

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    Your TTD would make a good Reader's Rides article, right here on the DP, but you're probably already considering that, right?

    Thanks, again.

    jd

  19. #19
    Dieselboy Guest

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    Peter:
    I would be more than happy to host your pictures on OliverDiesel.com. Go ahead and email me: david@oliverdiesel.com

  20. #20
    Join Date
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    Well, I wrote a explicit acticle on the build up with pic's and all, sent it to Jim for publishing on de DP.
    But after a while it had to be edited to like 2 pages, wich is not much if you wannt to tell all there is to tell.
    Anyway, if the new peninsular pump is in and I did make a new dyno run I try to write a short story on it and hope to get it published.


    Peter
    '85 CUCV blazer 6.2 twin turbo diesel (300 HP ), 4L80E with PCS trans controller '64 F350 tow truck (restoration project)

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