Oil Analysis

[csimo]

Extended drain? Heck, just use SynLube once and you're done. They claim no oil changes for 10 years or 150,000 miles (you'd probably never make it that far using SynLube).

There are a couple out there that claim you NEVER have to change your oil again. Good for the life of the car (which won't be too long).

There's one brand saying they can go 410,000 miles before needing an oil change.

Sure... believe all the black magic! Their oil won't get dirty.

Use common sense folks... oil is supposed to get dirty and if it doesn't its not a good oil to start with (the ability of an oil to hold dirt in suspension is a quality of good oil). There are very few times we change oil because the oil itself is worn out, but rather we're trying to flush the dirt out with the oil.

[Maxxheadroom]

It seems we have people on the diesel forum living in the year 2002 and others living in the year 1962 and others that are not sure what year it is, LOL!!...very interesting wouldn't you say

[csimo]

I live in 2002, but 1962 was a better year... and better times in my opinion.

Yep, I've been around a long time. I've worked for two of the big three (GM and Chrysler) for many years (I am a graduate of the GM Institute and started working for GM when I was 18. I'm now retired). I've worked along side some of the best engineers in the world. I've worked with people such as as Bob Eaton, Ed Cole, and Lee Iacocca. I've asked many questions about all the oil wizardry to many of the best. They ALL say the same things.

When these informercials claim you can run an engine for hundreds of miles in the desert without any oil I don't believe them. Do you?

When the manufacturer sets a maintenance schedule for a vehicle I believe them. Do you? They have little or nothing to gain off the maintenance, but more research has gone into that schedule than all these snake oil companies have done since their existance.

When companies claim their oil is better due to one specific test (usually the four ball test which has absolutely nothing to do with engine longevity) I don't believe them.

When companies claim to be "first in synthetics" I don't believe them. Synthetic oil has been around before their guy was born. Friedel & Crafts invented synthetic base stocks in 1877, and Germany had several synthetic oil factories in WWII (not to mention synthetic gasoline and synthetic rubber). Members of my family bombed them.

Responsible companies that make excellent products (Exxon Mobil comes to mind with Delvac 1, but they're not alone) tell you that you can extend drain intervals but they recommend the manufacturer's service intervals. Good advice.

Some companies tell you it's OK to forget about oil changes. They'll pay the bill if it breaks. Check their record with the BBB or their state attorney general and you'll find the truth. Don't bet on their warranty or GM's if you don't follow the maintenance schedule.

All I'm saying is that it's easy to get caught up in this advertising hype. There have been excellent studies done on motor oils. The legitimate studies invariably show that a good quality oil changed per the manufacturer's maintenance schedule is the right way to go.

Use common sense! Here's a summary of a good truly independent 4,000,000 mile motor oil test. It's kind of dated today, but it does show what I'm talking about.

http://www.xs11.com/stories/croil96.shtml

[LanduytG]

csimo
On this forum as well as others you seem to have and ax to grind with a certain oil company. Sure synthetics have been around for a long long time. But who was first to make it for automotive use? It was not the Germans. GeorgeM will even tell you that the oil company you don't like as very good oil, the only thing here will disagree with is in which wait to use.
Greg

[csimo]

Greg,

Sorry but the Germans used thousands of barrels of synthetic motor oil in WWII. Nearly all vehicles on the eastern front had to use it to keep running. Germany had a large number of synthetic lubricants designed out the their lack of natural oil, and the requirement to have mechanical functions at very low temps.

The only ACTUAL claim AMSOIL should make regarding their "First in Synthetics" claim is that Amsoil was the first company to market a synthetic motor oil in the USA that met API standards. They have reduced this very specific "first" down to their slogan "First in Synthetics". They were not the "first" to manufacturer or use synthetic motor oil, and they are not the "first" in synthetic motor oil sales. A very misleading slogan to say the least.

I have said many times that Amsoil makes some good products, and some not so good products. Most are in the middle. The problem I have with Amsoil is the brainwashing they do to people like you and others selling their product. They throw lots of documentation that appears to show that every single product they make is the best in the world. To the uninformed it looks impressive, but to the informed it looks like fraud. I don't think you or any of the others are bad people for buying into this, but I do think it's wrong to spread that to unsuspecting customers.

For one example let's take the famous four ball test that Amsoil hangs nearly 100% of it's credibilty on when it comes to motor oils. The four ball test is a wear indication of metal-to-metal contact components. An engine (other than a few parts in the valve train) contains no metal-to-metal components and is designed to run with a fine film of pressurized oil between metal components. The four ball test is not an appropriate test for real world engine components but WOULD be a good test for axles, etc. that are not pressurized and designed to run metal-to-metal. If you replaced the Amsoil motor oil in the test with the cheapest GL-5 gear lube you would suddenly think that the GL-5 is 10 times better than motor oil. They are designed for different purposes, and the four ball test is not a valid test for motor oils (but it is great for gear lubes). The independent tests show it's in the middle like most others.

I would probably use a few selected Amsoil products, but I just don't know what to believe from them. Nearly every think they claim is in a very grey area and the more you investigate the more you find that their claims are twisted and don't pertain to the purpose of the product. Yes other companies do some of the same things, but not to the extent perfected by Amsoil. I don't like that and feel that I should point it out so people can make an informed decision. The data is out there for people to look at and I hope they look at it from ALL sides.

Greg I'm sure that you really do believe that every product Amsoil makes is the best in the world. Logic and reason tells me otherwise. As long as there are people like you and I to debate such subjects there can be nothing but good come out of it. Informed consumers are the best consumers.

[hoot]

Then you have the 1,000,000 mile stock 1995 Chevy pickup with a 350 engine that ran on Pennzoil regular dino oil.

Pennzoil gave the guy a brand new truck so they could tear the still good running engine apart and analyze it.

I run synthetic ATF, synthetic Diff lube and use synthetic chassis grease.

For the engine I just run a good quality dino cause I like to change it and stay visually clean.

[Kennedy]

Hey Maverick,

I've heard of analyzres re-running samples as in there is likely enough for a "second opinion" if you can get them to release it.

I won't even bother saying who I'd recommend...

[GMC-2002-Dmax]

Maverick,

Hope your truck get's fixed, you need that rig to run without a worry!!! Good Luck to you!

Anyway, JMHO here, no one take any offense please. My last truck was a 1987 GMC Sierra 2500 no frills 4x4. I ran her from 1995 when I got her used with 70K on the clock and I sold her 5 years later with 247K. I never used anything other than mobil oil in the truck 5W40 in the winter and 10w40 in the summer. Plain old DINO oil at 2500-3000 mile oil changes. If I plowed a hard snow storm I would change it out the next time at half the mileage.

The truck is still on the road and last time I spoke with Dave he had 313K on her, still going strong. Tranny is GM's T400. Same tranny.

I am sticking with DINO in the Dmax, however I will most likely go to Synthetic for the Diff's and the transfer case. Still on the fence with the Allison on synthetic.

This post may have been a little off topic.

I am going to send for an analysis on my next oil change to see what's up.

Good luck again Maverick!!!

GMC

[FirstDiesel]

I guess I need to ask a newbie question here. So you get an oil analyis and it shows something wrong. Coolant in the oil I understand you need to address. But lets say it shows some sort of high metal reading. What good does this do you other than make you worry about something inside the engine getting ready to break into 50 little pieces?? Your not going to rip the engine apart looking for the source of high copper or whatever are you??? So why do this and worry???

[ChevysRus]

First Diesel....hope you are not one of those guys who never goes to the doctor for a physical, because you don't want to hear something might be wrong LOL

The first oil change should show the highest numbers as all the waste and sand and crap from the casting and buildup are washed out. After that, subsiquent analysis should read normal. If they don't read normal it means there is something you need to keep an eye on (just like high blood pressure or high cholesterol). If subsiquent analysis (testing) continue to show no improvement or worse readings then further testing may be necessary. Unlike our bodies, these trucks come with a warranty and if you can document an issue, the dealer has to make it right.

Most major diesel operators (big rigs and heavy equipment operators) live and die by the maintenance schedule and oil analysis as the "early warning system" that something is going on and needs to be addressed. Our trucks are smaller, but the same principle applies. Periodic analysis (not necessarily every oil change, but some will do that)can be considered preventive care so that you can take care of a problem before it gets worse. Think of it like a clogged artery in your heart's pipeline, do you want to know about it while there is still time to do something about it or do you want to just fall down and die one day. When we die it's all over, but when our trucks breakdown, it's just expensive. So consider the oil analysis like a doctor's visit for a checkup once a year or more.

Enjoy that new truck and yes you will be doing new things that you never did before in your gasser. But that's what makes it fun, to learn new things and take better care of your investment.

Have a great and healthy day!

[thechevyhdman]

When gettinng oil analyzed what do you put it in, do you do when engine is warm, cold. Gonna get it done but dont know if I should ship it to h.o. penn or just drive up my sample myself. Thinking of using a tubberware container about the size of a shot glass or so, How much oil do they need for anlysis too? Just wannna make sure, takes a while to get 7,000 miles on a truck and I am interested in seeing how my K&N is doing with keeping dirt out. Do they check for dirt in oil or just do a chemical analysis?

[DmaxMaverick]

thechevyhdman

Most analysis kits come with a bottle to return the oil in. Several even come with a return envelope to mail it in.

Check out Amsoil or Blackstone labs online. Buy the kit and they come with all you need. Not too pricey, either.

[KenZ]

Be sure to get the sample when the oil is warmed up. A fumoto valve makes it very easy to get a sample. Let a little run out first and then get your sample.

[LanduytG]

thechevyhdman
I feel the Amsoil oil analysis kits is the best for the money. For $14 you get the kit which includes sample bottle and postage paid mailer to send it to the lab. You will then get the report back and it will include everything you need to know. It even includes soot and tbn which most other companies do not include unless you pay more. By the way the $14 includes the shipping the kit to you.

Take the sample after you get home some evening while it is still hot. As stated above if you have a Fumoto valve drain a few ozs. out first before you take the sample. If you use a clean container to catch the oil in you can put it back in the truck when your done.

Greg

[george morrison]

Just to keep things balanced, another source of oil analysis kits ia www.avlube.com. The nice part of that kit is that you get me along with it! I get a back copy of the results so we can discuss them in detail. The lab is ISO 9000 and has no affiliation with an oil company.
George Morrison, STLE CLS

[Tinbender]

George,
What's the cost from Avlube?

[LanduytG]

Yes OAI is owned by Amsoil, but I feel they are as good as any other lab going. I have checked out other labs with the same oil sample and results were always the same. OAI is also a modern new lab that is ISO certified.
Greg

[thechevyhdman]

Well I want Cat to do it, they give responses back in the same day, and I want someone thats nuetral to this subject. The only reason Im having it done is to see how well the K&N is doing, Im pretty interested in the results. A friend of ours works for Cat, maybe you see him in the H.O Penn magazine Jeff Nevesky, he'll give me the straight up answers. When we took delivery of our 2001 Cat, we had problems after 500 miles so as protocol, they automatically checked the oil, seems that GMC put the wrong viscosity fluid in from the factory, ended up being alot of junk In the primary and secondary filter, rubber filings from the hoses when they were made. Ended up costing us 900 dollars and GM hasnt covered a dime yet. Thanks for your replys. Bill

[Paintdude]

"silicon level slightly high..Check air intake (air filter,etc) for dirt leak..."

Silicon PPM 25..Should be around 20..

It has been real dry around here and I had the K & N filter in it for awhile also..I have went back to the paper filter...

[ 09-16-2002: Message edited by: Paintdude ]</p>

[mdrag]

Paintdude,

You did not mention your truck's mileage or mileage on the oil. If this is your first or second change, it may be normal. Others have posted that the silicon levels on the Dmax tend to be high the first few changes, and then normalize - likely due to contamination.

Kennedy (and others) have recommended two or three quick oil/filter changes with dino to flush out the contaminants, then start a 'normal' oil/filter change schedule.

Depending on your Dmax mileage, the K&N may or may not be suspect...

Good luck.