Oil Analysis

[Idle_Chatter]

Well, just got my second analysis done by AVlube. My iron and aluminum are up slightly, but the good news is that in spite of my dunderheaded failure to clean my Amsoil oily couch cushion for 34,000 miles, my silicon was down from 12 to 9!! I guess that gunk was making it a better filter? My results are in my Yahoo briefcase at the links below if anyone is interested. Iron concerns me a bit, but the reduction in lead and copper with tin still at 0 makes me feel good that I'm not eating any bearings. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[SoCalDMAX]

Although several members (myself included)have cautioned people about K&N filters, I wouldn't characterize it as "q-tip bashing". Q-tips work great as long as one doesn't puncture an eardrum.

Here's what I've gathered from a multitude of sources, including: a well respected BMW tuner, other diesel web sites, another brand of car enthusiast site( sorry can't recall the brand, but it was a sports car site) and every off-road motorcycle site I've visited.

ALL OF THE ABOVE, except the BMW tuner, stated that the K&N flows better than the stock paper filter. In the case of the BMW, he compared the number of pleats and total surface area of the K&N vs stock filter and came up with equations showing that the K&N would load up faster, restrict airflow faster and allow significantly more dirt through (based on his own testing using the same dirt used in SAE tests) than the stock filter.

The other car and diesel enthusiast sites all cited their own testing, similar to the above, with the difference being the K&N flowed significantly better than stock, but at the cost of lower filtration effectiveness.

The off-road MC/ATV sites were almost unanimous in their opinion of K&N filters. If riding in dusty (especially fine dust) conditions, use a double or triple layer oiled FOAM type filter. If riding where dust is not a problem, use a K&N but always with an Outerwears over it. The off-road shops all sell foam and gauze type filters, with the K&N slightly higher in cost. All of them rebuild MC/ATV engines and they have seen and know first hand how much fine dust can get through a gauze type filter.

All of them basically came to the same conclusion: the K&N may flow more air when brand new, but at lower filtration effectiveness. Now if the owner cleans the K&N filter improperly with compressed air or high pressure water, uses too little or too much oil, all bets are off. The gauze has now been compromised and even larger particles can now get through the tunnels left in the gauze or it's not catching dirt due to too little oil or excess oil is messing with the MAF sensor.

I have nothing against gauze filters. If one wants max. airflow and doesn't mind a little more dust getting thru than other types, then the K&N is just fine. I've run one on my Mustang GT since 1990, along with Fram oil filters. Neither has caused an engine failure, but I'm willing to bet that the engine has suffered more wear in 110,000mi than it would have if using better air and oil filters. It's also not operated in dusty environments.

After carefully researching my diesel truck purchase and selecting the Dmax, I realized I'll probably never be able to afford another truck in this lifetime, so I'm buying the best maintenance items I can to try to protect the investment and ensure I can get buried in it. After reading all that I have (from people who SELL K&N filters), I've come to the conclusion that for OUR application, (high flow turbo diesel requiring very clean air) the oiled foam filter is the best way to go. I know this is just my opinion, but I based it upon lots of info I've read from multiple sources.

Regards, Steve

[ 11-25-2002: Message edited by: SoCalDMAX ]</p>

[Kennedy]

Who has the bigger name in air filters, K&N or Amsoil?

It is very easy to sell the K&N because it sells itself by name alone. Personally, I dislike the Amsoil company in general, BUT they have some fine products. The dual stage foam filter is one of them. I could put K&N filters on the site, and they would sell themselves like hot cakes, but I choose the Amsoil units for filtration benefits. And no, you will likely NEVER see my picture in the centerfold of the Amsoil propaganda book as a major player...

[OC_DMAX]

I will second what SoCalDMAX indicated with respect to the off-road environment and KNN air filters. I have been riding motorcycles in the Southern California deserts for over 35 years. For those that have ridden in this environment, they know how extreme it is with regard to dust. In my teens, I used KNN air filters for several years on a couple of bikes that I were riding at the time. I used these air filters because (at the time) the Dirt Bike magazine(s) indicated it was THE filter to use for max airflow. That was and maybe still is today a true statement. The bikes ran fine but what I always noticed was a very fine layer of dirt (mixed in air filter oil residual) in the rubber air intake tube that connected the air box to the carburetor. This was dirt that was evident to the touch of ones fingers. I tried different combination of oiling the filter to correct this situation, but it never seemed to change. Did the bikes run? Yes, they ran great. Did they have significant engine wear due to dirt getting through the air filter, most likely!

Several years later, I replaced those two bikes. In subsequent years, I remember that I used multi-layer foam air filters from a company call Twin Air. (Similar in construction to the Amsoil air filter, multi layer foam with suspended oil). The air intake tube was always clean. There may have been dirt present, but it was so small in size that it was not perceivable to the touch. In more recent years, most off-road dirt bike manufactures supply a good multi-lay foam air filter with the bike. There has really been no reason to replace them until they wear out from cleaning (usually after every ride).

I doubt that most people will subject their vehicles to the environment that is present in the SoCal off-road desert scene. However, if they do, I would suspect the same results would happen if using a KNN air filter. For me, I will stick with the Amsoil type air filter.

Just passing along some personal experiences that I have had with air filters on motorcycles that operate in an extreme dust/dirt environment. I will let you determine whether it is relevant to the situation at hand.

Regards,
Alan

[Paintdude]

That is why they use foam filters on lawn mowers...This summer was dry and dusty around here..When I had the K and N installed..

I run BNC filters on my motorcycle..23,000 miles and it still pulls 136 hp on the dyno..12 to 1 comp..But with 17 to 1 comp of the duramax ,plus a turbo ,the intake vaccum is gonna be much greater..So more filtration is a plus..IMO..

Copy and paste this..


http://pacific-audio.com/performance...es/199621.html

[ 11-25-2002: Message edited by: Paintdude ]</p>

[Paintdude]

I found this on another site.......a reply a guy got from K and N........

They do their own testing. Their testing does not meet the SAE testing standards. On the chart they show our filters has having a shorter life
than paper filters. Our filters are actually warrantied 10 years 1 million miles. The filters can be washed up to 25 times. Depending on your
environment you should only have to wash it once a year or around 30000 miles. Our filters have an efficiency rating of 99.05%. This means that
our filters catch 99.05% of the particles flown through it. This meets or exceed OEM standards. If Amsoil filters flowed and filtered better than
ours then I am sure that the big manufacturers would be having them make the filters for them (Ford, Mopar, Harley, etc.) instead of us. Also we made the filters on the Apache helicopters that flew in Desert Storm. I think that this speaks for itself on the quality of our product. Our oil is not as tacky. As an Amsoil filter gets dirty the tacky oil makes the dirt that much more heavy. As the air is coming through the filter it can actually push this heavy dirt through the filter. Here is how our filters are tested which is the true SAE standard. Our filters are tested by an outside, independent laboratory. They have been
proven to stop at least 99% of particles on a SAE dust test. This test uses particles as low as the 0 - 5 micron range and goes up to 20 microns. For comparison, a paper filter also stops 99% on the same test and the OEM minimum standard is 96%. Foam is generally the worst media with a typical efficiency rating of 75 - 85%. To get higher ratings, the foam must be more dense and therefore way more restrictive. The "tack" characteristic of a K&N allows for increase filtration without loss of flow as well. The testing procedure used is SAE J-726 using ISO Test Dust. This test is the standard of the air filter industry. The test procedure consists of flowing air through the filter at a constant rate (airflow rate is determined by the application) while feeding test dust into the air stream at a rate of 1 gram per cubic meter of air.
As the filter loads with dust the pressure drop across the filter is increased to maintain the prescribed airflow rate. The test is continued until the pressure drop increases 10" H2O above the initial restriction of
the clean element (in this case .78" to 10.78" H2O). At this point the test is terminated. The dirty filter element is then weighed. This weight is compared to the clean element weight to determine the total Dust Capacity. The amount of dust retained by the filter is divided by the total amount of dust fed during the test to determine the Cumulative Efficiency. The K&N filter achieved the following results: Dust Capacity: 305 grams Cumulative Efficiency: 99.05 %. Holding the filter to the light is useless, pin holes are normal. That is what makes a K&N filter. There are actually hundreds of microscopic fibers that cross these holes and when treated with oil, capture and hold the very
fine particles. On the same hand, they allow the filter to flow more air than paper or foam. The filter is 4 ply cotton gauze unlike some competitors
synthetic material filters. The synthetics do not have the very small fibers that natural cotton does. Also, the oil can be pulled off of a foam filter contaminating electronic sensors. It will absorb into cotton and stay in the media. In fact, Honda and Toyota only recommend K&N filters when using
aftermarket high flow filters as K&N is the only brand of filter the oil does NOT come off of. They will not cover a failed sensor if foam filters were used. We got started over 30 years ago making filters for motorcycles and off road racers. The filters did so well that these guys wanted them for their cars
and trucks. We started making filters for these applications and here we are today. If they did not work, we would not still be here and growing every
year. We now make filters for Chrysler/Mopar, Ford Motorsports, Edelbrock, Rotax Engines, and Harley Davidson. We come as original equipment on the 2000 Ford Mustang Cobra-R. We even made filters for the Apache helicopters used in Desert Storm because of maintenance problems with the original paper design.
If they work in these conditions they will work for you. I hope this answers any questions you have and alleviates any concerns about owning a K&N filter.
Thank You.

[OC_DMAX]

Paintdude.

As with many things in life, a person has to gather all the information they can, add in some personal experience, and then make a decision and go with it. The paper vs. gauze vs. foam air filter element is probably one of the issues that will be debated on this and other web sites for years to come. The individuals posting on this thread are doing the right thing by using some analytical means (oil analysis) to assist themselves in making a decision.

I followed your reference to (http://pacific-audio.com/performance...es/199621.html). After reading that message I ended up on another web site dealing with Oil Analysis, filtration, etc. (http://www.bobistheoilguy.com

[GMC-2002-Dmax]

Paintdude,

THANKS

GMC

[thechevyhdman]

Got another oil analysis heres the results
Miles on oil 7029.0
Miles on truck 28,822
Copper 6
Iron 15
Chrome 2
Lead 0
Aluminum 3
Silicon 10
Molybdenum 82
Sodium 1
Calcium 2420
Tin 0
Potassium 0
Magnesium 242
Zinc 1223
Water negative
Fuel negative
Soot 11
Oxidation 46
Sulfur products 13
Oil viscosity 13.1
Compartment wear is normal. No problems indicated at this time.

[TraceF]

The zinc could be part of the additive package. What lube are you running?

[thechevyhdman]

Im running Citgo Citguard 500 15w40. My Zinc levels in my last analysis was 943. I just use plain ol' Dino oil. Bill

[TraceF]

Citgard is a quality product. I am very familiar with it, used to work for a multi-branded distributor who sold a lot of it. I also have a good friend at Citgo.

I only have 3500 miles on my DMax, I plan to run 6000 - 7500 intervals depending on how much I tow.

Do you tow much? Looks like you are getting good results with 7000 interval.

[thechevyhdman]

No towing now. During the spring, summer, and fall, I tow a little landscape trailer that weighs about 2 tons. This is just normal driving with the Juice. I figure Im saving some money by putting a bit more miles on the oil before I change it. And the oil analysis will provide documentation/proof of any problems. And can come in assistance if there are any problems down the road with warranty/owner changed oil.
Plus the Citgo oil is so cheap from our local distributor I really cant go wrong using it.

[LanduytG]

thechevyhdman

Analysis looks good, but the soot number concerns me. What lab did the analysis and how are they measuring the soot? With the couple of labs I have used 11 would be over twice the allowable limit. The viscicity is at the lower end of a 40 weight. Iron is one of the lowest I have seen. You have a lot of life left in the oil.
Greg

[ 01-19-2003: Message edited by: LanduytG ]</p>

[mackin]

The HD Man is the "idle" KING !!!!!!

Not that I'm far behind.....

Even he will tell you that .......


MAC

[ 01-19-2003: Message edited by: mackin ]</p>

[thechevyhdman]

Actually Greg, the last time I posted on this you asked me the same question. Soot is measured in terms of percent allowed based upon Caterpillar's engine specifications. I scored in at %11 the maximum allowed is %100. I guess it doesnt really give an exact amount on how much "soot" is in my oil, But based on how stringent CAT is on their SOS Oil Analysis, It must not be a problem.(They are wicked anal on oil conditions etc) I might call them up tommorrow and find out a more in depth answer. I dont know how soot can be measured(PPM?) But I assume that if my levels were a problem they would be on my butt in no time. If they spot a big problem, they will call you up immediately, happened before when we took delivery of a brand new GMC with a Cat 3126E. Came from the factory with wrong oil They guessed it was 10w30. Cat is a real class act with everything they do. Ive seen hospital rooms cleanliness put to shame by their Oil analysis lab.

[LanduytG]

thechevyhdman

I don't remember asking before but then I guess I did. I would guess then 11 is still way under 1%. I don't have any problem with Cat's analysis I am sure they are on top of things better than most.

Greg

[tonkater]

Hey Chevy HD !! Hows it going ? Wheres a good place to get K&N air filter in Danbury/New Milford ?

[thechevyhdman]

Terry, Long time no see. I usually just go to Cruisers on Federal road. After shipping etc, their price is the same as an online store. I bought 7 K&N's their So they took a couple bucks off the top I think it was like 42 or 45 bucks for the filter. I actually have to pick my brother up 2 this week. Not only did he get an 03' Dmax, Alli, Dually, hes joining the site too. But please everyone dont worry, hes the oldest of the seven of us and I am the youngest....Hes not nearly as much of a loudmouth as I am [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[tonkater]

Past your "roll off truck" in New Milford today on way to work. Bidding a job in Taunton Hill , any local electricians/plumbers you can recommend ? I'm ready to fire the one I got now, he's turned what I scheduled as an 8 week project in Brookfield into 5 or 6 month one. UGH !!