Simon, any more info about "new" block?

[robscarab]

Yeah, I think during those early electronic ip years the service managers were lost for words (and excuses) while their lots were full of 6.5's waiting for Stanadyne to catch up. The towing thing was nonsense but the fuel I was getting was substandard. (supplied by my oil company client). I am an optimist and a GM lover so Im looking forward to driving my new crew cab dually and shooting for 20mpg. Total investment= less than 10,000 !!

The story you mention about the high mileage 6.5 is not unique. I have heard about just as many good experiences as bad. I wonder out loud if some cranks have a better balance from the factory and others pass through a funky harmonic at certain rpm? The rebuilt engine I am considering right now has a main stud girdle and mahle pistons. Crank is 0/0 with just a polish. It is not a balanced assembly. Is balancing important for these low rpm engines? Perhaps someone here can guide me to a Thread(s) that describe the best practices to rebuild a 6.5? I have seen a number of posts recommending the stud girdle and 18:1 Mahle pistons but would appreciate some links to machining oriented threads.

Having a resource like this forum sure adds a new and interesting dimension to building a tow vehicle..great stuff !

Rob

[Robyn]

BINGO

You very well may be right about certain cranks passing through a harmonic. (critical speed)

Cast units are not all the same from one to another.

Ballancing the assembly is a very good way to spend $200 and can improve things a bunch.

I am not at all sure what the factory ballance is but as far as Im concerned the readings even for these slower engines should be
no more than .2 mils or less if possible

Maybe RJ will pop in here and give us his opinion. He does ballancing and should be able to give some meaningful input.

[sidehackbob]

While an engine may run at a funny harmonic, the the "worst" harmonic is a first order natural frequency. Engines go through these usually below an rpm that the engine will even run. the second order is capable of about half the displacement of the first. The third order is about half the second and so on. The natural frequency that would occur near 1800 would most likely be of an order so high that the displacement from the harmonic would be insignificant compared to the loading seen from the combustion.

I would be more interested in the effects of firing order setting up pulses through the crank than chasing the harmonics.

A properly balanced diesel engine will blow your mind. Its like going from a vw bug to an Eldorado.

[Robyn]

The firing order on the 6.5 is totally different than a gasser big block for sure

It seems to me that it was done to keep a more controlable rate of flex on the cranks due to the power pulses

They go front to back side to side
1 8 7 2 6 5 4 3
LF, RR, LR, RF, RC, LC, RC, LC This is for the 6.2/6.5


A 454 is as follows

1 8 4 3 6 5 7 2
LF RR RC LC RC LC LR RF


There are some mysterious harmonics that set up in these things.

Remember the old 6.2's how the long belts would vibrate and flop all over at about 1200-1400 RPM

They even had a stainless belt shoe (guard) on the top radiator hose to keep the belt from sawing a groove in it.

The dampened pulleys stopped the belts from vibrating but the harmonic is still in the engine its just not presenting so much at the belts.

The old Olds 350 Diesels were especially bad about the belt thing.

With the advent of the dampened drive pulley and the serp drive the noise a vibration levels went way down.

I think some of it is due to the sharp nature of the power pulses at certain rpms.

The power pulse is fast and harsh as compared to a gasser..
I would think that the new pilot injection scheme they have on the DMAX and later Strokes helps this stuff too.

It would be interesting to know what the shock loading on the 6.5 cranks is as compared to a big block

[deiseltranstech]

Well Simon I finally got to this place today, He has no "new" blocks there. He only has used newer style blocks the and older ones too. He has 599/141/506 castings there. He ever had a "diamond " block there but it had spun the mains badly. The one 506 block had a small crack starting up #8 and the one 599 I seen had a couple small cracks too. He did however have a comlete longblock the looked to have been rebuilt very recently that had spun a #3 rod bearing. it was a 506 casting with no cracks, but no diamond. It did have the 4 bolt bosses for the motor mounts though so it was probably a 2000-ish casting. He was very open with me right from the start so I wouldn't be scared to buy fron him but I would go there and pick your block out yourself so you can see what your getting. He also has lots of good used heads/cranks ect... and If anyone is interested in conversion engines he has lots of duramax/powerstroke/cummins take outs there with harnesses.
I myself called my builder(pacific reman)-(In B.C) today becuase I was interested in the 506 diamond block with the mains issuse but he said stay away couldn't fix, but he just got some good used blocks in and sold me one for $600.00(506 hummer style) so I couldn't say no. They are building my 18:1 shortblock and balancing bottom end for a very reasonable price and I have used 3 of there 6.5 rebuilts before with not one issue yet todate.
I would refer them to anyone, very good workmanship.
So I did not get to see this aftermarket block yet but I guess I don't need to anymore hopefully.

[simon]

thanks for the feedback.

Well I guess that is an other dead end, if he only has scrap.
He told me he had them new chinese blocks .you go figger.

[RJ Performance]

I wasn't sure if I should post a response or not, but after a good conversation with Simon. I think that it is best I post something.

First, Kennedy Diesel purchased injectors from RJ Performance for a few years and while the quantities weren't huge we did sell them 186 units over that time. When we were given a price increase from Delphi and switched to a surplus deal that we were told were manufactured by bosch we did have around a 10% warranty rate that we didn't have before.

Though we admittedly didn't react quick enough to the few customers that had problems we did take care of them, for the returns we didn't refund the out going freight. Which in hind sight was a poor decision.

I would very much like to diclose where we are purchasing the raw materials for our Xceptional 6500 engines, which is what we advertise and sell. What I can tell you is that all our orders are piggy backed from larger contract builders for AM General. At no time have we indicated to sell or market Optimax or Optimizer 6500 as that would be trade mark infringement.

I have an open door policy and any one is welcome anytime to come through our facility and take a look at the assembly process in at a neigbouring ISO certified company. Though sometimes I can't answer everyones questions because some of the information I am by contract unable to discuss. And it is difficult to operate in such a highly competitive market where their is so much mis information, and keep vendors and sources confidential. I guess at times reactions here to certian questions could come off as ignorant, which isn't our intent.

Some indicated that I overcharge, I dissagree, I think you will find our pricing extremely competitive and warranty coverage to match.

I have a lot of respect for Kennedy Diesel and other like him, and it is our goal to help RJ Performance get to that level of customer service and knowledge. I would like to apologize to those that feel they weren't treated well, and I would like the opportunity to make that right.

I have offered Simon an opportunity to get a block from us at a discounted price to build an engine from it and provide honest feedback about it. It's the only way I see these rumors ending. I have two blocks available for this purpose and would extend the offer to anyone that is genuine and interested.

Finally I would like to address the Better Business Beareau issues. In 36 months we have had three complaints, one has been addressed and resolved but two remain outstanding from the same complaintant. A ford engine was delivered to a customer that signed for the product. After removing the packaging damages were noted, but the freight company delcined the claim because the damages were not noted on the bill of lading when it was signed for. When we ship product it is in as promised condition, and we couldn't come to an agreement with this customer as we could not accept liability for freight damages. In the last 28 months we have had no complaints issued against us.

I hope that puts some of these issues to bed and we hope that we will have the opportunity to build our reputation in a positive way.


Regards,
Jonathon Campbell
General Manager
RJ Performance

[Kennedy]

I wasn't sure if I should post a response or not, but after a good conversation with Simon. I think that it is best I post something.

First, Kennedy Diesel purchased injectors from RJ Performance for a few years and while the quantities weren't huge we did sell them 186 units over that time. When we were given a price increase from Delphi and switched to a surplus deal that we were told were manufactured by bosch we did have around a 10% warranty rate that we didn't have before.

Though we admittedly didn't react quick enough to the few customers that had problems we did take care of them, for the returns we didn't refund the out going freight. Which in hind sight was a poor decision.

I would very much like to diclose where we are purchasing the raw materials for our Xceptional 6500 engines, which is what we advertise and sell. What I can tell you is that all our orders are piggy backed from larger contract builders for AM General. At no time have we indicated to sell or market Optimax or Optimizer 6500 as that would be trade mark infringement.

I have an open door policy and any one is welcome anytime to come through our facility and take a look at the assembly process in at a neigbouring ISO certified company. Though sometimes I can't answer everyones questions because some of the information I am by contract unable to discuss. And it is difficult to operate in such a highly competitive market where their is so much mis information, and keep vendors and sources confidential. I guess at times reactions here to certian questions could come off as ignorant, which isn't our intent.

Some indicated that I overcharge, I dissagree, I think you will find our pricing extremely competitive and warranty coverage to match.

I have a lot of respect for Kennedy Diesel and other like him, and it is our goal to help RJ Performance get to that level of customer service and knowledge. I would like to apologize to those that feel they weren't treated well, and I would like the opportunity to make that right.

I have offered Simon an opportunity to get a block from us at a discounted price to build an engine from it and provide honest feedback about it. It's the only way I see these rumors ending. I have two blocks available for this purpose and would extend the offer to anyone that is genuine and interested.

Finally I would like to address the Better Business Beareau issues. In 36 months we have had three complaints, one has been addressed and resolved but two remain outstanding from the same complaintant. A ford engine was delivered to a customer that signed for the product. After removing the packaging damages were noted, but the freight company delcined the claim because the damages were not noted on the bill of lading when it was signed for. When we ship product it is in as promised condition, and we couldn't come to an agreement with this customer as we could not accept liability for freight damages. In the last 28 months we have had no complaints issued against us.

I hope that puts some of these issues to bed and we hope that we will have the opportunity to build our reputation in a positive way.


Regards,
Jonathon Campbell
General Manager
RJ Performance

A customer's purchase history is not a figure that I'd ever disclose publicly...



P.S. Not sure who does your accounting, but 186 does not divide by eight and we ALWAYS buy and sell in sets.

[Kennedy]

Newb here, Also from Edmonton...

I was within an hour of sending my Visa # to the Calgary Guys selling the " Genuine AMG longblock" ! I decided to buy a membership here and sign on with hopes of discovering the source of these blocks. Thanks to the members here I apparantly have dodged a bullet! I was told by the guy at _ performance that these were genuine AM General blocks. I made the point clear that I am a single Dad whom will be travelling with my 3 young sons this summer and could not afford risking a breakdown on a lonely stretch of highway with my 5th wheel in tow. He proceeded to tell me all about the difference between his Hummer blocks and my inferior 93 599 block. I don't know how some people go through life lying and cheating, even if their not smart enough to run an honest business...

I had a 97 TD 3/4 ton 4x4 in 97 and went through 3 ip's and broke the crank at 85,000 kms. GM blamed the fuel pump problems on bad fuel from Northern Alberta and the crank problem was from towing too much? Anyway I went to a CTD Dodge after that with good results. Recently I decided to buy a 1 ton dually to be used for towing only and found a beautiful 93...with a blown crank. I am currently scanning this very informative website to familiarize myself with the lastest info on the 6.5TD and ways to make it last this time !

My membership has likely paid for itself many times over now that I have been warned about another opportunist lying about the source of his products!

My family and I Thank You all !!

Rob Staples

So my question for Jonathon Campbell is this:

Can you honestly say that the engines that you have use new OE blocks with the Navistar logo and cast in USA?

[Kennedy]

??????????

[rameye]

????????????? me too!

this is too good not to have a response!

[sidehackbob]

"At no time have we indicated to sell or market Optimax or Optimizer 6500 as that would be trade mark infringement."

The true facts are not trademark infingement unless they are getting real blocks "slipped" out a side door somewhere and dont want to lose thier source.

[Yukon6.2]

This thread was getting buried.On the second page and from last month.
So curious minds still would like to hear a reply???

[simon]

this thing won,t rest till its over. There is more to come soon

[simon]

It took a while, but I tracked down this fellows supplier.
Straight from China,as i suspected,via the US in to Canada
This factory is selling thousands of 6.2 and 6.5 506 blocks,heads and cranks in the US.
Aparently a lot of rebuilders offering new engines are using them.

Here is one other thing that raises questions, there is at least one other factory in china casting these blocks, after asking them for a company in the US to buy a block from, their answer was! As much as we would like to but we can't do that. Sorry, but That is a business secret, disclosing that information would jeopardize our business contract.
Their blocks have the diamond logo and 506 casted in the valley.

Who are they in business with???

As far as JR performance goes, I will not deal with him again ever.
His US counterpart is 65dieseldirect,they sell on ebay too.

There you have it

[DmaxMaverick]

Counterfeit blocks? International/Navistar should have something to say about that. The FTC would be interested, too. Was it just "506", or the entire casting number? Either way, it shouldn't (can't) be a 506 block.

[TurboDiverArt]

Something definitely smells fishy to me!

Art.

[daustin]

Counterfeit blocks? International/Navistar should have something to say about that. The FTC would be interested, too. Was it just "506", or the entire casting number? Either way, it shouldn't (can't) be a 506 block.

I'd be tempted to make copies of everything i had on it, turn that over to International/Navistar and the FTC. Let them close them down both the US and CA and the people selling the bogus stuff!!
Don

[bl78ljb]

I just thought I would add this reply I received to this post. I had mentioned before that I have the Reviva engine in my Sub and they claimed to have the new GEP blocks, but I had not asked them specifics. Well, I finally got around to that today and here is the reply I received.

"Bryan,
We only use the new General Engine Products blocks. There are companies that use the China casted blocks but let me assure you that you will not be getting that from us. Our drop in engine has new-block, heads, camshaft, injection pump, pistons, rings, gaskets and seals. We reman the turbo, injectors, water pump, crankshaft and connecting rods. I do not think that you will find a better product in the market that is better than ours. I f you have any other questions please give us a call.

John Hudson
Technical Sales Consultant
Reviva,Inc.
5130 Main St. NE
Minneapolis,Mn 55421
Phone-763-971-6251
Fax-763-390-3722
jhudson@reviva.com"



I think that is a very plain answer to the question on this company anyway. Just wanted to pass that along and include it for the archives as well.

[simon]

Counterfeit blocks? International/Navistar should have something to say about that. The FTC would be interested, too. Was it just "506", or the entire casting number? Either way, it shouldn't (can't) be a 506 block.

I don't know what casting # are on the [real AMG block] I have never seen one yet.
but I can asure you the china made is a 506 block alright, and I don't believe they are counterfeit either. They look darn good I tell you.
I also know how to get them, but I am not about to get involved in the legal BS with nobody.
On the other hand ,by keeping these international/navistar blocks out of civilian hands only provokes this kind of thing. shame on them too.