After market heads

[Robyn]

So far the only real negative talk about this stuff is assumed problems and really nothing much to any great degree has surfaced.
I really would like someone to come and tell me a truely honest horror story about this stuff.

We have one member here that has found some minor issues but nothing that is curling my hair.
The biggest complaint so far seems to be, well "WHAT IF IT BREAKS"

So Far we have not heard one horror story, not that it cant happen, I just want to hear one before I condemn the product is all.

And as far a AMG/GEP having a plant over there. IF they did and word got out the trash would be called down by the bucket load me thinks and the dark clouds of condemnation would be a gathering on the horizon.

The stigma that if it comes from China is that it cant be any good.

Be aware I am playing both sides of the fence here. I hate seeing jobs going over seas as much as anyone else.

I also dont like seeing parts that are out of reach price wise for us poor folks.

I still think (althoughI can't prove it) that some good O'l boys here in the states are behind this whole thing and are cutting a fat hog.

Rich (RAT MAN) bought a set of these heads after considering his options.
We talked the other night to great length about these heads and he is totally happy with what came out of the box.

I would still like to hear from someone that can give us a real good writeup as to the faults and post some pictures of a Chinese cast head that has failed while in use.

If I see a good writeup of a head/heads from CCH that have failed due to workmanship or material defects I will be quite satisfied that maybe there is an issue here.

Until this happens I am still not going to throw too much trash their way.

best to all

Robyn

[MaxPF]

My biggest problem with Chinese stuff is that China is NOT a friend of the US. They peg their currency to ours, their trade policy is very one-sided, and they are using our dollars to fund the largest military in the world. Thus, I hate spending money on goods made there. I do think they can turn out quality stuff, especially something as low-tech as cast iron parts. I would simply prefer that my money stay here, or at the very least goes into the economy of a friendly nation.

For the most part, I try not to buy stuff that originates in China. However, I will acknowledge that there are times when one has little choice. Try buying a PC that isn't made, at least in part, in China. Same thing for most other consumer electronics. If I have a choice I will usually buy the non-Chinese item despite the higher price of the non-Chinese item. There are limits though - when I compare a $30 Chinese brake rotor to a $50 Canadian rotor, I will spend the extra $20 every time. However, when it comes down to the difference between $500 and $1100, well, $600 is a a good chunk of change to most of us.

In retrospect they weren't a great bargain, but even considering the money I will have to spend to have them resurfaced after I install the GM precups they are still going to be much less expensive than the next cheapest alternative, and far less than a set of AMG heads.

On the subject of the integrity of the Chinese castings I can say this: my machinist, who does mostly gasser stuff, has had plenty of customers use the Chinese Vortec-clone head on SBC's. They are coated with the same black paint as the 6.5 heads are, so I wonder if they originate from the same foundry. Anyway, he acknowledges that the casting isn't as nice and pretty as the GM head, and the machining can be rough on some of them. However, he also stated that he has never seen one crack, while the GM Vortec heads commonly crack in service. Hopefully these 6.5 heads hold up as well. We shall see...

[redbird2]

I have been using CCH for at least 4 years now one set is 5 years old was the test set we used that truck was still running strong when I sold the truck 2 months ago.

Robyn spoke of Frito Lay using these that is correct I was involved in the decision to try these heads and I was also the person that installed the first set we used in are area.

The truck we installed them on had 126k on it it had broken a belt and the driver drove it 15 miles or more on interstate and cooked the engine he only noticed there was a problem when he went to get on the ramp no power steering and then noticed temp was pegged when he stopped then the steam came out. I had reinstalled the belt and refilled with coolant the truck drank coolant driver called after 5 days told me he used 6 gallon of coolant in 5days. after test found what I figured was blowing head gasket (hope that was all) pull heads found bad head gasket, then flipped the heads over and the cracks in the heads looked like spider webs. You could easily tell these heads where trashed, I was out of stock on new GM/GEP heads.

I had seen an add for CCH so after calling them asking all the same question Robyn had asked and some finical question regarding there company, myself and 6 or 7 other company people had a conference call talked over the pro and cons and them being made in china did come up we decided to try a set on this truck as it would cost us less for 2 heads then one from GM and we where not sure if this engine was going to last along time anyway. So I ordered a set of heads they overnighted them to me at no extra charge (good sales tactic to get my large fleet business) was very impressed with what they sent me. Installed them truck never missed a beat the rest of its life, its even lost the belt again when alt locked up at 188K miles different drive he noticed only got to 260 that time replaced alternator new belt topped off coolant ran until 224K when I sold it.

Side note we have a buyer that is buying a large majority of are 6.5 powered trucks and pulling the engines and shipping container after container to Australia they want the engines.

I can not give you a total number of head we have purchased however I will tell you we buy them 8 sets at a time, I have seen a drastic drop in failed heads as most of are old gm engines are about gone and now the majority are a GEP produces engines

Robyn asked if anyone has ever had a failure to speak up. I can tell you I have NEVER had a single failure to date of heads from CCH.

I do not like buying made in China items however it all comes down to the all might dollar if I can buy US for few dollars more I will if it several hundred to thousand more I keeping my green backs.

Here is something to think about I have a friend in the scrap business I asked him few years back why scrap prices have soared ( I'm not complaining) the Chinese are buying everything they can get there hands on on world market driving the price. He went on to tell me that there is only a 2 or 3 day scrap supply on the world markets for certain types of metals mostly going to china.

Who do we have to thank for the loss of US jobs to foreign out sourcing the EPA they have made the regulation to cost prohibitive for are US companies to build new foundries.

Ok I'm done ranting now sorry

[Robyn]

Thank you for this input.
I agree 100% about the outsourcing and keeping the $$$ in our pocket.

As long as our companies are strangled by overpowering EPA regs they are going to go where they can operate at a good profit.

I am still wanting to hear a nasty, sad and ugly story about a set of these heads.

Please someone share more info on this stuff.

Maybe someone has a story good or bad on the new blocks too.

Rat man got his new one after it had been through a truck wreck and was torn up during shipping and he sent it back.

More please.


Best to all and thanks to all who have offered input.

Robyn

[More Power]

I just visited the CCH web site, and saw that they list the manufacturer of both their 6.5 reman and new heads as "GM".

Like I've said before, people can spend their money how they wish, but I think they should know where the parts come from.

Jim

[Hubert]

Jim I THINK? that "Mfg: GM" is the vehicle mfg, "model: TRUCK" etc (not the actual part mfg). Yeah part number is little misleading as well GM825 though? But at least they are not using the AC Delco or GM part number and adding a useless 9 to the tail of the number or other "trick". I agree actual part mfg and country of origin should be divulged. I think they probably have some liberty as it could be assembled here in the US or other loop hole.

Robyn you can bet the barn USA corporations are setting up plants in China and being quiet about it.

Sorry not a specific 6.5 head/block story but I use to work for a tool mfg that sold a fair bit of tooling shipping to China. Some through big USA tooling, machine, and line builders. One job was for a big diesel engine mfg and they were adamant about keeping thier name clean of "made in China" to the point of making all new blue prints with a fake or subsidiary company name in the title block for mfg part prints sent out for tooling quotes and orders. And IF the engine company's name was mentioned, leaked, or other in writing then the machine builder would be fined according to contract (never learned who it was). As typical start ups go several big orders for replacement tools were made until bugs and learing curve was up. Also as time went on yes I am sure they copied tools and out sourced to other tooling vendors (some of which is just typical tooling business).

[More Power]

Everything on the ad page linked above would lead people to assume CCH sells GM manufacturered 6.5L cylinder heads. It's misleading (trying to be polite)....

It would be far better to say: "Aftermarket cylinder heads for the GM 6.5L diesel engine".

Jim

[Robyn]

OK I give.

The ad is written in such a way that if one assumes they are GM heads then I guess it could be taken that way. I read it as being the model of vehicle and engine they fit and not who made the parts.

I asked right up front what they were and was told that they are overseas castings with MOSTLY US made valves springs and such that are RECON (USED)

CCH is right up front about it when asked, never so much as a stutter.

Robyn

[Yukon6.2]

Hi all
Robyn i'v had an idea floating around in my head for a while,lots of room for them,rarely do the hit anything important
Anyhow my question to you seeing how you have talked with CCH a fair bit is, Do they get raw castings and machine them inhouse? If not do they have thier own spec's that the castings get machined too?
Happy New Year
Thomas

[Robyn]

Cant give you a 100% answer on that one. Sales says they do the machining and the installation of all components in house.

Now do they machine the deck and the valve seats ect. I dont know.
The way it was put to me It could be either way.
The set of heads I got had very good machine work on them. The guides were great as were the valve seats. Concentricity of the seat to the guide was very good. Stem to guide clearance was fine too.

The set I have had perfect machining on the decks and manifold surfaces.
The only issue I had was the threads for the Glowplugs.
I had to run a tap through them before the plugs would screw in the way I wanted them to.
I would check all threads that go into critical areas before ever installing any head due to the possibilities of having to yank one back off and losing a set of bolts plus the gasket.


All in all great machining on these.

I am thinking due to the comments that some have made about some rather shoddy looks to some heads that the castings may be coming in bare and unfinished and the finish work is being done here.

I would never buy a bare casting as the assembled ones come with the warranty and the bare ones dont.

Hope this helps

Robyn

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

I tend to agree that suppliers should be very clear about where their parts come from, or at least that they weren't made by the OEM. On the other hand, if I don't buy the part from a GM (or any OEM for that matter) outlet, I ASSUME that parts are NOT from the OEM - when I buy a lift pump from NAPA, I assume it was NOT made by GM, & would quite frankly be surprised if it had been.

Blessings!

[More Power]

I don't know how many are aware of this, but at least one of our longtime advertising vendors sell what I assume are the Chinese 6.5 heads. www.dieselservices.com

They advertise the lowest cost in North America for new bare or dressed 6.5 cylinder heads. Their ad says:
"DSG offers brand new Diesel Pro cylinder heads for all GM 6.5L pickup applications."
http://www.dieselservices.com/html/g..._bare_p421.cfm

Notice, they don't say "MFG: GM". Diesel Services put their own name on them...

Jim

[Kevin]

CLEARWATER CYLINDER HEAD INC IS SELLING THIS NEW 6.5 GM DIESEL CYLINDER HEAD. THIS HEAD IS COMPLETE WITH VALVES AND SPRINGS. THIS HEAD IS CASTING #567 AND COMES WITH A 2 YR UNLIMITED MILEAGE WARRANTY. THIS IS A AFTERMARKET CASTING AND IS MUCH THICKER AND STRONGER IN ALL THE CRITICAL AREAS THEN THE FACTORY HEAD.

The above is a quote from there ebay listing. Seem to me they are 100% honest in letting the you know it is aftermarket.

I think I will try a set. Good price. Good warranty. redbird2 gives a good testimony of the product.

[Kevin]

While we are on the issue of heads, how about gaskets? Anyone try Cometic gaskets(MLS) for the 6.5? Price is about $100 a side. They also make ones for the duramax.

[arveetek]

I don't know how many are aware of this, but at least one of our longtime advertising vendors sell what I assume are the Chinese 6.5 heads. www.dieselservices.com

They advertise the lowest cost in North America for new bare or dressed 6.5 cylinder heads. Their ad says:
"DSG offers brand new Diesel Pro cylinder heads for all GM 6.5L pickup applications."
http://www.dieselservices.com/html/g..._bare_p421.cfm

Notice, they don't say "MFG: GM". Diesel Services put their own name on them...

Jim

I contacted DSG to find out some more info on their heads and blocks. They offer two kinds of heads: remanufactured and new. The reman heads are genuine GM heads with all new hardware and liners in the coolant passages between the valves. The new heads, both bare and fully loaded, are "offshore" aftermarket heads.

They advertise a "new" 6.5L engine that they call the "Titan". They told me that this is the new AMG block and heads, with their goodies added onto it, such as the gear drive and stud girdle.

Casey

[More Power]

CLEARWATER CYLINDER HEAD INC IS SELLING THIS NEW 6.5 GM DIESEL CYLINDER HEAD. THIS HEAD IS COMPLETE WITH VALVES AND SPRINGS. THIS HEAD IS CASTING #567 AND COMES WITH A 2 YR UNLIMITED MILEAGE WARRANTY. THIS IS A AFTERMARKET CASTING AND IS MUCH THICKER AND STRONGER IN ALL THE CRITICAL AREAS THEN THE FACTORY HEAD.

The above is a quote from there ebay listing. Seem to me they are 100% honest in letting the you know it is aftermarket.

The eBay ad just means that vendors respect eBay's truth in advertising requirements - as well as buyer feedback. Why don't they say the same thing on their own web site? All they would have to do is change "MFG: GM" to "MFG: Aftermarket".

Jim

[MaxPF]

While we are on the issue of heads, how about gaskets? Anyone try Cometic gaskets(MLS) for the 6.5? Price is about $100 a side. They also make ones for the duramax.

I don't know of anyone who has. Quite a few of the Cummins guys have tried them, but they say they won't hold more than 60-70psi

Seriously, if all you need is a replacement for a stock thickness gasket or a .010" thicker gasket the Fel-Pro's seem to hold up fine. The nice thing about the Cometics is that you can get them much thicker than stock. A pair of .074" thick Cometics on a 21.3:1 engine should give you approximately 18:1 compression. It's a heck of a lot cheaper than a set of pistons Assuming they hold up...

One thing to remember about Cometic gaskets is that they specify a finish of 50RA or better for their gaskets, which is a fairly smooth finish. Also, they don't have as much conformability as the Fel-Pro's or other stock-type gaskets, so the surfaces need to be quite flat. Just something to keep in mind...

[Robyn]

Just a note here.
Although I have used CCH heads and still believe that they are a good choice for a rebuild when the big $$$$$ is an issue, the point of declaring the Mfg is a good point.

Jim has pointed out that DSG makes it clear that their heads are not OEM in origin and this is a good point.

DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing.
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing.

I have emailed CCH and asked them about making a disclosure on their web site/ catalogue and as yet have not received an answer.
I may call them and speak with the manager and see if they are willing to make this adjustment.

Personally I still think that any time you buy a part that does not slide across the counter at the MA GENERAL store that it should be considered an aftermarket part and its up to you to ask questions if you feel the need to know more information.

I really would like to know what the origin of the aftermarket head and block castings is as far as who is behind them and actually is pulling the strings.

Seems to be a lot of companies selling replacement heads now and there can't be that many different outfits making the castings.

Best to all

Robyn

[Robyn]

Just a note here.
Although I have used CCH heads and still believe that they are a good choice for a rebuild when the big $$$$$ is an issue, the point of declaring the Mfg is a good point.

Jim has pointed out that DSG makes it clear that their heads are not OEM in origin and this is a good point.

DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing.
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing.

I have emailed CCH and asked them about making a disclosure on their web site/ catalogue and as yet have not received an answer.
I may call them and speak with the manager and see if they are willing to make this adjustment.

Personally I still think that any time you buy a part that does not slide across the counter at the MA GENERAL store that it should be considered an aftermarket part and its up to you to ask questions if you feel the need to know more information.

I really would like to know what the origin of the aftermarket head and block castings is as far as who is behind them and actually is pulling the strings.

Seems to be a lot of companies selling replacement heads now and there can't be that many different outfits making the castings.

Best to all

Robyn

[Robyn]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKK

I just got off the phone with CCH
Talked with Bob about where their new 6.5 head castings are coming from.

The answer was "Australia". Hmmmm I asked him if that the supplier in Australia was a middleman on the way from China?

He said "I dont think so, BUTT it could be"
I asked him about placing a disclosure on their web site as to the Mfg.
He said he would do so, WE SHALL SEE.
I will keep an eye on their site and see how long it takes if it even happens.
Im sure that if their business is brisk that this is not going to be a real priority item.

Just so you know that I did follow up on this.

Robyn