Medium Duty Quality thread- Monroe

[Braveheart]

I had the recent pleasure of purchasing a C4500 with a pickup conversion from Monroe with So-Low suspension. I took delivery of the vehicle with 0.7 miles on it at the Monroe's Flint facility. I was excited to stand next to it, but everything else was a disappointment. So began the saga.

This vehicle incidentally passed all of Monroe's and GM's QC checks. It has been the most disappointing vehicle purchase that I have ever made. I want to increase the awareness of these problems for everyone...to advance the knowledge of this community. I encourage all of the medium duty owners to check their vehicles for the same problems and check NHTSA.gov for TSB's and defects investigatons for their particular vehicle as well. GM is getting ready to sell off the medium duty products to Navistar...maybe no one cares anymore.

The vehicle did not get a pre-purchase inspection by the dealer, so this is how it comes. And don't forget...your medium duty dealer may not be your local neighborhood dealer.

At 0.7 miles:

1) Driver's headlight out.
2) Headlights not aimed...pointing about 15 feet infront of the truck...just about useless. Monroe does not apparently align or examine the headlights after altering the suspension of the truck.
3) Water leaking through cab lights onto the brake pedal and onto the driver's floor.
4) Right rear passenger door leading edge so far out of alignment that air and water could enter the passenger compartment. Every '07 Kodiak that I have seen has the same door problem!
5) Severe front end vibration at 50, 60, and 70 mph with severe steering wheel shake at higher speeds. I've discovered that GM didn't bother balancing the Alcoa wheels. The medium duty dealer recently put 5 oz on weight on each of them and the vibration persists. Flat spots? Monroe's shocks? Alignment? All are possible culprits of the continued vibration.
6) Steering wheel about 20 degrees clockwise. Monroe's 0.6 mi test drive obviously failed to see this or the vibration. No alignment bolts touched, so I guess it wasn't aligned after being lowered 2". I was told by Monroe's inside sales that if the steering wheel is straight on the test drive that the QC check is satisfied!
7) Rust on all the aftermarket fasteners and rusty scuffs on the running boards. The suspension U-bolts look awful from behind. Beware snow belters!
8) No apparent block sanding of the Monroe pickup bed. Fine imperfections up and down the length of the fiberglass.
9) GM's orangepeel on the cab finish is awful. Monroe's finishing process was far superior on the bed. To the trained eye..this is the dead giveaway that the paint wasn't put on by the same process.
10) Brake squeal. I think this is also a common problem.
11) Factory CD radio stinks. Not really a problem...this is a commercial vehicle right?

My truck has already spent a day at the GM dealer and there was a lot of finger pointing at Monroe. Monroe's warranty folks seem anxious to help, but why should I have to do all of this? I now have to take it to a tractor alignment facility to align Monroe's suspension, and my experience tells me the vibration won't be solved here. It's going to be a David V. Goliath and a lot more finger pointing.

It now has 800 miles on it and I haven't been able to tow anything secondary to the vibration.

Also, beware of the titling and insurance woes. In Ohio, it is considered commercial from both the titling, financing, and insurance standpoint. Get quotes first! Only GMAC seems willing to treat it as a non-comm vehicle.
There is no JD Power or Kelly Blue book or Edmunds to keep you out of these possible shark infested waters.

I encourage feedback. Maybe a Medium duty "quality" forum should be started.

[DmaxMaverick]

I won't defend GM when they lay an egg, and they do on occasion. Your complaints lie with the upfitter. Every complaint you've stated, except for the radio (old news...), and perhaps the door alignment, is a component either replaced, or modified, by the upfitter. How can you include GM in such a complaint? This would seem to me to have nothing to do with GM's QC. The dealer should be responsible for the door alignment and radio, but the driveability issues you have are not a GM QC issue. You are due a functional vehicle, and should have it. Bashing GM because the upfitter dropped the ball isn't serving your needs, nor will it get you a working truck.

[Braveheart]

I'm not into mud slinging for fun. This looks like a pandemic from my perspective, so I will defend my position.

GM is responsible for the defective headlamp, which is a pretty big issue when you are driving the vehicle for the first time at dusk. I had to bail out in a rest area in a Michigan snow storm and then limp to a parts joint just to get the truck home. I also had to buy a cheap torx driver. Upon replacing the headlamp I realized that the steel springs and stamped housings were all badly corroded...not terribly pleasant to deal with with cold fingers, and not a bright outlook for future headlight changes.

No one inspected the door at body. There was another Kodiak at the dealership of the same year...with exactly the same door issue. I did not feel alone. This was not an accident with just this truck.

Shipping a vehicle with a factory wheel option and not placing a single wheel weight on those wheels when they were 5oz out of balance doesn't really seem appropriate.

Then the cab lights...water all over the brake actuating rod and the pedal which was frozen. Water in the dash and on the brake system looks like a safety matter waiting to happen. Again, the other Kodiak at the dealership had a wet headliner and water inside too, and there were a pile of new cab lights on the seat waiting to be installed.

We agree on the radio! But I really did not expect much with the size of that cab and the size of the speakers.

Monroe and GM seem like equals to me. 6 or 7 of the 11 points point to GM. My opinion. And I absolutely respect yours and anyone elses for that matter. This is my third GM. Maybe I've had bad luck this time, but that is for everyone else to decide. I tried really hard to be objective and not opinionated.

[DmaxMaverick]

There's no excuse for misaligned doors. To find two on the same lot with the same issue is very unusual. I've seen dozens of 4500's, and none had this issue. Must have been the same guy doing the doors on those trucks. I dunno about the headlamp issue. Could be unique, and could have been caused by the upfitter. Either way, the upfitter should have caught whatever issue there was with it, as they should have been adjusted and inspected along with the suspension mods. Period. The water leak is another issue, and should be addressed. I've not heard of it around here (CA). Wheel weights? Same thing. You could have just bought a "Friday truck". It happens. Most of the GM medium duty truck reports have been very positive, so it's hard to say just what's going on. Unless you have operated the truck before the upfitter got it, you really have no way of knowing what issues they are responsible for. That said, I think your issues, for the most part, are unique to your experience. Warning other MD owners of all your issues is a good thing, but we have to be careful where the "Chicken Little" line is drawn.

[Mark Rinker]

I have been watching this product line carefully and would have to agree that there appears to be QC problems, especially in the later models.

The number of 20-30K mile C4500s on the new/used market is very high, and I have talked to a handful of loyal GM light duty truck owners that were sorely disappointed in their C4500 purchase. Mostly what I would call interior and body 'fit and finish' issues. We know the drivetrain is strong.

As for the radio, upgrade your front door speakers, adding insulation, and you'll be amazed at the power and sound of the GM factory radio.

Also, there is a perception problem in the customer base as well...the Chevrolet customer steps out of the quietest and most refined 3500 one-ton pickup on the market into a rough-around-the-edges, noisy, harsh riding BEAST that clearly isn't for everyone. Certainly, one look at the front axle and spring assembly should tell you this truck is not for taking your date to the movies in. My wife and kids flat out refuse to ride any distance with me, only the driver's chair is air-ride, and the other seats are fixed and very harsh.

Alot of the body problems stem from the harsh unloaded ride. Anything that can rattle loose, will rattle loose over time.

This farm boy has spent lots of hours in more crude ma-cheens, and I suspect the first owner of my truck worked through the factory gremlins in the 20K miles he put on. I know it was into the dealer a handful of times for small repairs, and replaced the driver's seat entirely.

The good news? Put 6,000#s on the flatbed, or 14,000# behind the Kodiak and it smooths right out and asks how far you want to go! This week is Minneapolis to Phoenix, and I am looking forward to the miles. My advice if you have driven a Kodiak (at least 50 miles, loaded and unloaded, not just around the block) and still want one? Buy used. There are some great deals out there...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevr...spagenameZWDVW

Offer this dealer 30K cash and I bet you'd have a new truck. It cost someone 60K to upfit.

[Braveheart]

Again...this is all objective.

I have since spoken to Monroe's warranty department today, and although I invited them to call the dealer while the vehicle was in for service, they are doing it now. That is not proactive. I informed them that the GM mechanic said the alignment was Monroe's responsibility...and that it needed one. Monroe's initial stance was that "lowering" had no effect on the Kodiak's alignment, and that is GM's responsibility. They said they would stand behind their product yesterday... their response today is that "Monroe is not paying for an alignment." I guess things change. The Gen. Mngr. is to call me later.

Looking at the suspension design, toe is fixed...unless you change the castor angle. And in this case the steering wheel is out of alignment. So at the least, it needs an alignment to center the wheel. That is Monroe's responsibility, plain and simple. I cannot believe what is happening.

I talked to Goodyear about the vibration to get some further insight. My cab/chassis could have been sitting for 10 months, and I had questions about steel belt -memory- flat spots. I informed them that all the MD trucks that Monroe gets for upfitting do not have wheel weights too! (That information came from Monroe. GM is delivering MD trucks without checking wheel balance according to them.) Mine was an example of this. Goodyear agreed that GM is going to cause the new tires to cup at the least from bouncing down the road, and then here goes another line of fingerpointing and wasted time. Goodyear advised me to take it to a truck tire service center and have the radial and lateral runout of the tires checked, as well as the Alcoa wheels, at their expense. Goodyear was more than pleasant to deal with.

Another question...why isn't anyone balancing these vehicles before delivery? Monroe didn't see it as their responsibility, even though they are the one transforming it into a "premium" product. GM installed the wheels and tires...so it's another hot-potato.

I need to hire someone to take this truck around town and make calls, so I don't have to take any more time off work! That is costing me big $$. It's become my second volunteer job.

Trust me...if the situation was different, I would have turned around and abandoned this vehicle. Unfortunately, my trip to pick up the Kodiak happened on a Friday evening in the middle of a nice lake-effect snow storm. I just wanted to get home at that point in time, and Monroe had locked the doors. Maybe, I should drive it the 300+ miles back to them now.

[Braveheart]

So far there are 1 or 2 people on this thread with similar troubles, some of which are safety concerns. Please go to this link, put in vehicle year, make, and KODIAK, and type a few sentences. This is where we begin to get something done here.

You can select c4500 or c5500, but leave it under KODIAK.

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/Consumer.cfm

Please let NHTSA know about your wheel weights, uneven tire wear, leaking cab lights, poorly aimed headlights, mirrors, etc...if it's a safety concern or defect, they will do an investigation, but like the Atty General, there needs to be multiple WRITTEN complaints to make something happen.

Identify the upfitter in the text too, if it relates to them.

[Duramaster]

I can tell you from experience that had the truck been through the PDI process, the water leak, door fit, headlamp, steering and possibly the vibration would have been addressed before you were to have taken possesion of the vehicle at my dealership. Problem is the truck roles off the assembly line and right through the hole in the fence (so I've been told) over to Monroe. No GM PDI is ever done UNLESS the vehicle is then shipped to a GM dealer after Monroe is done with the truck. We get Monroe conversions in all the time and they usually have a ton of Monroe related issues that need to be addressed before delivery to the customer. I noticed that you stated that you have the air suspension added to the truck....... not a GM option and could relate to the vibration problem if it turns out to be a driveline angle issue. I have also seen alot of new trucks come in with "SQUARE" tires. We then contact whoever the tire manufacturer is and they take care of that. The water leak is actually a common issue. The lenses are cracked around the screw holes. There are updated lenses for that. The head lights on every new vehicle have to be aligned. They are never right off of the assembly line. The steering wheel is easy enough. Check the toe, if ok then reposition the wheel on the column. The column is not keyed. You can put the wheel on 180 degrees out if you want! As far as the other complaints go, you and the dealer need to work it out with Monroe. It could be worse......... it could be a Regency conversion. They SUCK! It seems like every time we get one in, there are major problems with it!

One other issue you might run into is.............. who is going to work on this vehicle? In my area, the light duty dealers don't like to repair the C-4500 vehicles even though they are authorized to sell them. So where is your nearest Medium Duty Dealer? Good luck!

[Braveheart]

You are correct, and it follows with what my relatively-local MD dealer says, except, they routinely do not balance unless they feel a vibration. I'm not sure they would have picked up on the headlight alignment, unless they were specifically looking at it. The problem here is that, even though there are PDI monies for this type of thing, they would not touch any suspension related items unless Monroe Warranty gave consent...which they did not. The GM mechanic "sealed" but did not replace the cab lights, which I assume is because they were not cracked, and he fit the door nicely.

Recently, the delivering saleman has assured me that they would pay for an alignment and balancing on the company CC, just to avoid Monroe all-together on the other safety issues.

But that's the tragedy...hole in the fence or otherwise...these vehicles shouldn't be hitting the streets like they are. It's the 21st century, and there are certain basic standards that should be met at the manufacturer.

Let's not talk about "value" or "ride" on this thread. That is subjective. Please continue posting if you have quality issues. As I've said elsewhere, if we are complacent, further mediocrity with ensue, as it is evident there are no watchdogs and the manufacturers are taking full advantage.

[Braveheart]

So I took the early advice and had my Kodiak alignment looked at by a tractor pro--a real artisan.

He said that it was not acceptable for an alignment to be neglected by Monroe after such modifications. Mine was not tracking straight in the rear, secondary to a axle which was 1/8" off perpendicular, and you know about the steering wheel already.

Monroe drops these front ends (So-Low) about 2" and then moves the steering wheel about 2 splines one direction or another. On my truck, the wheel was still too far to the right--over corrected. Herein lies a major design flaw. It is my understanding, after my suspension clinic today, that steering boxes operate at their tightest tolerances where the factory zeros the steering wheel. There is a mark on the steering shaft at zero. By moving it 45 degrees, one side or the other, you are begging for sloppy steering and an uneven "feel" and "range" (his words.) Monroe does not install an adjustable drag link to put the steering box back to "zero" ...ever. This effectively lengthens the drag link. So they are begging for sloppy steering and again violating acceptable engineering standards. Looking at the design, I see now why I get bump steer which is worse on left wheel impacts than on the right, add that to the sloppy steering accuracy, and this shows how these could be made so, so much better.

Read: make a DOT-accepted adjustable drag link and you will sell hundreds.

We examined the new Goodyear Highway tires and there was significant tread lateral runout as well as a radial hop in each. This explains the vibration. The balance on one was still not perfect yet. I'm meeting with Goodyear tomorrow; we'll see how they will address this.

I will later measure the input and output angles on the drive shaft to see if they are within 4 degrees or whatever the spec is. This was recent advice.

I don't think the dealer would do this amount of "sorting" even if they are getting the PDI check.

[Mark Rinker]

So - do you think that your truck was a good value, overall? How's the ride? My 2004 Kodiak just turned over 70K miles yesterday. Over 50K in ~10 months. Its been a good truck for the intended purpose. Good luck with your upfit oversites. I agree that you are on to something here - that should be addressed before the customer takes delivery.

Question: What is your intended use for this truck?

[murphyslaw]

So I took the early advice and had my Kodiak alignment looked at by a tractor pro--a real artisan.

He said that it was not acceptable for an alignment to be neglected by Monroe after such modifications. Mine was not tracking straight in the rear, secondary to a axle which was 1/8" off perpendicular, and you know about the steering wheel already.

Monroe drops these front ends (So-Low) about 2" and then moves the steering wheel about 2 splines one direction or another. On my truck, the wheel was still too far to the right--over corrected. Herein lies a major design flaw. It is my understanding, after my suspension clinic today, that steering boxes operate at their tightest tolerances where the factory zeros the steering wheel. There is a mark on the steering shaft at zero. By moving it 45 degrees, one side or the other, you are begging for sloppy steering and an uneven "feel" and "range" (his words.) Monroe does not install an adjustable drag link to put the steering box back to "zero" ...ever. This effectively lengthens the drag link. So they are begging for sloppy steering and again violating acceptable engineering standards. Looking at the design, I see now why I get bump steer which is worse on left wheel impacts than on the right, add that to the sloppy steering accuracy, and this shows how these could be made so, so much better.

Read: make a DOT-accepted adjustable drag link and you will sell hundreds.

We examined the new Goodyear Highway tires and there was significant tread lateral runout as well as a radial hop in each. This explains the vibration. The balance on one was still not perfect yet. I'm meeting with Goodyear tomorrow; we'll see how they will address this.

I will later measure the input and output angles on the drive shaft to see if they are within 4 degrees or whatever the spec is. This was recent advice.

I don't think the dealer would do this amount of "sorting" even if they are getting the PDI check.

dump those goodyears and grab a set of Yokohama's. just my professional opinion.

[Braveheart]

Truck says Monroe on it.

I have also spent some time doing some trig on the steering geometry. It looks like the pitman arm was displaced by about .230" during lowering which equates to about 1.4 degrees of steering gear output shaft movement to keep the wheels going straight.

I also just got an email from ZF engineering. Here is what I know:

1) the steering gear has hydraulic limiters which are set one-time only when the steering wheel is turned to its axle stops. If you change the pitman arm range, you have to replace the self-adjusting limiters and then reset them. If you don't set them, the gear will run full hydraulic assist into the axle stops and who knows where that energy is going. For me that would be on right-hand turns. Monroe did not reset them.

2) the gear also has a self-centering feature. So , when you take your hands off the wheel or in a bump-steer situation the wheel wants to come back to straight ahead. If your gear is 45 degrees off like mine, the truck will naturally pull opposite the direction of the displacement.

3) The gear has it's absolute most sensitive "feel" by having its tightest tolerances at "zero."

The solution: I think there is enough play in the gear mounting bolts to get 1.4 degress of rotation and get the steering gear back where it belongs. If that is not enough, there is probably enough play in the shackles or axle to move the gear the rest of the way.

Monroe asserts that GM told them that the changes from lowering were trivial, as I said before. I am working on a solution that Monroe can implement for everyone.

It would be interesting to see where other's gears are centered at the steering wheel. If you have a factory non-airbag steering wheel, just work your fingers under the horn pad and it comes off shockingly easy. Just four rubber posts hold it down using friction. Note whether your rig is lowered or not and where the chisel mark on the steering shaft is in relation to the steering wheel's center.

My bet is that the lowered Monroe rigs will have the mark to the left of the wheel. My bet is that non-lowered rigs will have a steering shaft pretty close to straight ahead. .

[Duramaster]

If I think about it Braveheart, I will try and take the time to compare steering wheel revolutions from center to stop and even stop to stop if you would like.

[Braveheart]

Because the pitman arm is not perpendicular to the drag link, the arm has to rotate more on left turns than on right. There might be some further geometry at the knuckle that is in play. Anyway I think you'll find about 2.3 turns left and 2.1 right if the suspension is stock.

If I can verify when that chisel strike is placed during Assembly, it will save me taking off my steering shaft to find the steering gear's center. I think it is a safe assumption to say that it reflects the steering gear center though.

Looking under the pad for the strike and seeing how that compares to the steering wheel is the best way to determine if it is centered, unless the strike means something else.

[Braveheart]

Note the steering wheel chisel strike about 45 degrees left of center.

SteeringIII.JPG

Note the arrow in the plastic dust shield and the fat arrow cast into the gear housing.

GearIII.JPG

This causes three difficulties: 1) the gear's "return to center" function is constantly trying to turn the truck to the right. If you doubt this, take your hands off the wheel. This makes you work harder to keep the truck straight. 2) in a bump steer situation, it may amplify one vector 3) the gear is looser anytime you are off zero, making you work harder again to keep it in a straight line. It could be soooo much better if this was in line.