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Diesel Conversions Convert gas to diesel, or convert to a 6.2/6.5/Duramax/Cummins/Navistar/Isuzu/Perkins/Detroit/or ... diesel engine. Go here to see completed projects, works in progress, share your conversion or ask the experts.

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  #1  
Old 06-07-2018, 05:24 PM
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MidTNJasonF MidTNJasonF is offline
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Default 6.5 TD FSJ Conversion

I have a 1964 J200 Kaiser/Jeep/Gladiator that is a mess of a truck. The original drive train is long gone. The truck is rough enough there is no real point in actually restoring it. It will simply be a resto mod fun truck for me. Overlanding, camping, fishing, hauling the boat to the lake, ect.

Currently it sits with a non running AMC 360, a TH400, and a quadratrac transfer case. It sits on an unknown origin rear axle and a closed knuckle Dana 44. I will be sliding a 14 bolt FF 8 lug axle with new 4.56:1 gears and a Yukon Duragrip under the rear. I have a 8 lug Dana 44 front axle from a military square body Blazer that I have not rebuilt or re geared yet that I was thinking about using. It will all be riding on 35" or 37" tires.

My original intent was a diesel swap with a 4 speed auto or possibly a manual trans backing it. The path I was contemplating was the Merc 4x4 conversion with OM617 but was thinking that would be a bit under powered.

I have since come across a dirt cheap deal on a HMMWV 6.5 TD take out with trans and transfer case attached. It is a 4L80e trans so that would get me my 4 speed trans I intended. I will have to figure out my front axle and transfer case options if I go this route since the HMMWV is a Drivers side drop TC and both my current Dana 44's are passenger side drop.

I have done some reading on the 6.5 TD so I know the common concerns with the PMD relocation, lift pump inadequacies, and a few other minor nitpicks.

What I do not know and what I need to determine is what the minimum is to get this hooked up in a non standard vehicle since this 2001 era 6.5 TD is electronically controlled rather than mechanical.

Obviously I will have to find a solution for:

1) Trans control - The takeout drive train will have no control units that were not mounted directly to the engine. If it was attached to body sheet metal or in the cab it will not be included. Most of the harness items will be disconnected or cut and left dangling from the engine and trans. Most of the linkages will be there but again could have been damaged or cut on removal.
I am guessing a stand alone TCM will need to be sourced.

2) 24v to 12v changes. Anything left attached to the drive train that is still 24 volt will have to be swapped for 12 volt. I am thinking a few of the solenoids or sensors may be an issue here but I am not familiar enough with the differences between the Civilian and HMMWV 6.5 TD engines and accessories. Starter maybe a concern as well?

3) Engine control - again I will not have the benefit of any control modules, ecm's, or ecu's that were not bolted directly to the engine. I may have a cut or incomplete harness. I will be looking for the bare minimum needed to hook up, start, and run the engine in the primitive '64 bay of the old Kaiser.

4) Transfer Case Linkage. I can likely figure this one out or fab something up. I imagine it is like most Transfer cases and it is a configuration of one or more push/pull plungers moving internal forks actuated by manual levers. I have a couple Dana 20 cases sitting around but adapting one to the 4L80e may be cost prohibitive even if it would solve my differential location problem.

5) Mounting, cooling, and drive shafts. These are the easy parts and would have been a part of any swap I was going to do. FSJ to Chevy V8 mounts are plentiful and easy to acquire if can't fab/use existing hardware. I was going to need driveshafts made with I swapped axles and ditched the quadrajunk anyway.

So with that long winded intro to my swap plan what input do the wise and learned minds of TDP have?

Is there a good breakdown of the engine connections for these electronic 6.5 TD motors? Is there a good source of engine control harnesses and modules if mine is missing and or unusable?

Cost effective TCM options?

I am probably crazy but the 6.5 TD will be more or less free once I sell the 360, accumulated after market parts, and TH400. My only costs will be in the items I need to source to hook up the new drivetrain.
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:28 AM
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Welcome!

The mil-spec HMMWVs all used the mechanical fuel injection pump, so there's no PMD/FSD to worry about - mechanical accelerator pedal linkage. The civilian H1 Hummer eventually got the DS4 electronic fuel injection, but the H1s are so valuable that I doubt many ever wind up in a salvage yard. The 4L80-E though is an electronic automatic, so you'll need the wiring harness and TCM (Transmission Control Module) to run it. The engine should have the ESS (Engine Speed Sensor) that provides input to the TCM. An aftermarket TCM and wiring harness is above $1k, unless you can find a used replacement. It's too bad salvage yards don't hire people who know this. If this won't be driven on the freeway, you could install a TH400 non-overdrive non-electronic auto.

Changing to 12v systems is easy. Use the 1985-93 12v glow system, it's not expensive and it's easy to install. The civilian alternator basically requires just one wire - a hot charging lead to one of the batteries.

Otherwise, the 6.5 would be a good choice for your Jeep. There have been many other conversions completed like the one you're proposing.

Check back with specific questions as you work your way through the project. We'll be glad to help. Jim
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Old 06-08-2018, 09:26 AM
JeepSJ JeepSJ is offline
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Go over to IFSJA and search for posts by DieselSJ (me) and you should be able to find my build thread. 87 Grand Wag with a 6.5 turbo and 700R4. I think I was the first one to do one of those swaps and had it running back around 2006 or so and put 60K miles on it before I parked it with injection pump issues. Currently getting a full engine rebuild with 18:1's and some other goodies. It would get 24+ mpg cruising at 75-80.

When you get the engine low enough so that the turbo doesn't hit the hood, your steering shaft will hit the engine mount. I used Advance Adapters engine mounts and that was really the only issue I had. I sawzall'd the end of the mount and the rubber biscuit to clear the steering shaft. I'm using the truck setup with the turbo over the passenger manifold. If you have a center mount setup I can't say what clearance issues you will have. Mine is also set way back to where I have maybe 1/2" between the cylinder head and firewall. With the center mount turbo you will need to have clearance for the up-pipes on the exhaust. I have about 2" between the fan and radiator so there isn't a lot of room to push things forward.

One think you will absolutely want is something to tie the frame rails together under the mounts. My frame mount on the passenger side is twisted down. As I'm not in a huge rush to get it running, I'll be building a custom set of mounts that will tie the sides together and give me room for my steering shaft.
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:24 PM
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MidTNJasonF MidTNJasonF is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by More Power View Post
Welcome!

The mil-spec HMMWVs all used the mechanical fuel injection pump, so there's no PMD/FSD to worry about - mechanical accelerator pedal linkage.

The 4L80-E though is an electronic automatic, so you'll need the wiring harness and TCM (Transmission Control Module) to run it. The engine should have the ESS (Engine Speed Sensor) that provides input to the TCM.
you could install a TH400 non-overdrive non-electronic auto.

Changing to 12v systems is easy. Use the 1985-93 12v glow system, it's not expensive and it's easy to install. The civilian alternator basically requires just one wire - a hot charging lead to one of the batteries.
Thanks for the Info Jim. Especially the info on the injection pump. I have been trying to find good info and read up but it seems that most of what I was finding was focused on the civilian chevy/gmc applications.

I would like to keep the 4L80 and be highway capable when needed. I will try to round up a TCM. I talked with the guy about their motors and he told me they are not allowed to remove the modules and can only pull what is attached to the engine when they tear them down. They take a torch to the frame rails just forward of the engine mounts and just rearward of the trans cross member. They also torch the drive shaft in a few inches back from the u joint. I will probably have to replace or rebuild the harness if/when I find a TCM solution.

I could always do a full manual valve body setup but that would probably be a last resort. It would certainly be workable for as little as I will drive this truck but full automatic function would be preferred.
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:49 PM
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MidTNJasonF MidTNJasonF is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepSJ View Post
Go over to IFSJA and search for posts by DieselSJ (me) and you should be able to find my build thread.

I used Advance Adapters engine mounts and that was really the only issue I had. I sawzall'd the end of the mount and the rubber biscuit to clear the steering shaft.

I'm using the truck setup with the turbo over the passenger manifold. If you have a center mount setup I can't say what clearance issues you will have.

One think you will absolutely want is something to tie the frame rails together under the mounts. My frame mount on the passenger side is twisted down.
Good info, Thanks. I did not realize IFSJA was still up and running. I will see if I can go find your thread.

This is a center mount turbo setup but I am half tempted to upgrade to something like and HX35 or HX40 and switch to a civilian truck style system or custom fab setup.

The take out setup actually has both sections of frame rail, engine mounts, and trans cross members. They actually just cut the frame forward of the mounts and just behind the trans cross member. I intend to see if I can use at least part of these rails and mounts to reinforce my frame and create a mount structure.

I will likely end up using electric fans for the sake of room and simplicity. I will also be on a bit of a lift and non factory axles. Steering will be a blank slate so all that combined with a stripped engine bay will hopefully reduce any clearance/placement issues.

There will not really be much FSJ left in this thing honestly and I have no reservations about cutting and bending to fit. Every panel has rot to some degree. The bed skins are toast. I will be using a combination of the interior bed structure and box tubing to create a step side M715 look bed. I will likely have to cut some metal out of the front fenders and the front valance will get trimmed for a high mount winch bumper. The cab and dash will be fairly stock but I am liable to throw at least some sort of cage in there.
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Old 06-08-2018, 08:56 PM
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MidTNJasonF MidTNJasonF is offline
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Got it unloaded.

I will start removing accessories and separate the engine, trans, and transfer case tomorrow so I can move and work on them separately until I am ready to pull the old gas burner from the truck.

Already pulled the air filter housing, alternator, and AC Compressor to make it a bit easier to unload.

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Old 06-11-2018, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MidTNJasonF View Post
Thanks for the Info Jim. Especially the info on the injection pump. I have been trying to find good info and read up but it seems that most of what I was finding was focused on the civilian chevy/gmc applications.

I would like to keep the 4L80 and be highway capable when needed. I will try to round up a TCM. I talked with the guy about their motors and he told me they are not allowed to remove the modules and can only pull what is attached to the engine when they tear them down. They take a torch to the frame rails just forward of the engine mounts and just rearward of the trans cross member. They also torch the drive shaft in a few inches back from the u joint. I will probably have to replace or rebuild the harness if/when I find a TCM solution.

I could always do a full manual valve body setup but that would probably be a last resort. It would certainly be workable for as little as I will drive this truck but full automatic function would be preferred.
Back in 2006 when I visited the Mishawaka, IN AM General HMMWV plant, I was told about the proprietary mil-spec TCM they used. Memory fades, but I remember that it was not a GM sourced module. I suspect the programming was designed for the HMMWV and its rather unique roll (maybe EMP resistant) - not a highway cruiser.
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Old 06-11-2018, 02:13 PM
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MidTNJasonF MidTNJasonF is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by More Power View Post
Back in 2006 when I visited the Mishawaka, IN AM General HMMWV plant, I was told about the proprietary mil-spec TCM they used. Memory fades, but I remember that it was not a GM sourced module. I suspect the programming was designed for the HMMWV and its rather unique roll (maybe EMP resistant) - not a highway cruiser.
Yes it is "Hardened". From My research it is a PCS (Powertrain Control Solutions) module that is installed in a very robust sealed case that is mounted in the interior cabin of the vehicle.

There were apparently several versions but many are interchangeable. There were only two chip/program variations used in various models but again the can be interchanged somewhat with no ill effects to the transmission.

5962 01 431 5121 7X677 16244697 MICROCIRCUIT,LINEAR USE WITH 1996 TRANSMISSION ONLY

5962 01 441 0369 1LW55 16251212 MICROCIRCUIT,MEMORY USE WITH 1997 TRANSMISSION ONLY PART OF KIT P/N 57K3522

5962 01 470 4621 0NJT4 16266438 MICROCIRCUIT LINEAR USE WITH 1998 TRANSMISSION ONLY PART OF KIT P/N 57K3540

5962 01 480 5246 34623 5715758 MICROCIRCUIT,MEMORY USE WITH 1999 TRANSMISSION ONLY PART OF KIT P/N 57K3548

5962 01 480 5248 34623 5715896 MICROCIRCUIT,MEMORY USE WITH 2000 TRANSMISSION ONLY PART OF KIT P/N 57K3559

5962 01 497 2519 34623 5716029 MICROCIRCUIT,MEMORY USE WITH 2001 TRANSMISSION ONLY PART OF KIT P/N 57K3570

The two EPROM Chip versions I have found reference to are:
CZSU and CZSW

I do not know how accurate this information is yet as it is just what I have discovered in my initial searches. I have not sourced any parts yet and I have not verified compatibility yet.

I have a lot more reading to go before I start wiring. With any luck I can track down some service manuals and or diagrams for a 2001 era vehicle and begin to fab up a wire harness. Most of the connectors should be available on the market.

My plan is to create a very simple engine and transmission wire harness to run it all. I will incorporate that into the simplistic vehicle body harness I am going to have to make for the truck itself.

I got busy this weekend on household/yard chores but I began pulling parts off the motor and separating the transfer case and transmission so the individual parts are easier to move/store. I won't get much done this week as I am off to Mexico for work so I guess I will have more time to read. That is of course if I can find some things to download and review while I am in a metal tube hurtling through the clouds.
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Old 06-13-2018, 06:40 PM
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Well Hello there neighbor. Just over here in East Tennessee.
Whats ya doin down south in Mexico? If ya can talk about it.
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Old 06-15-2018, 08:35 PM
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MidTNJasonF MidTNJasonF is offline
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Originally Posted by a5150nut View Post
Well Hello there neighbor. Just over here in East Tennessee.
Whats ya doin down south in Mexico? If ya can talk about it.

Hello there,

I am a Senior Supplier Quality Engineer for a Tier 1 automotive parts manufacturer. A number of our suppliers are in Mexico. I have to travel there once ever month or two. Hermosillo, Chihuahua, Silao, Monclova, Monterrey, Obergon, Piedras Negras, Romita, and probably one or two locations I am forgetting.

I don't get east of Winchester, or Cookeville very often. Most of my US suppliers are in Kentucky, Ohio, Michigan, Alabama, and Mississippi. I have a few in Tennessee but mostly central TN.

We don't do anything I would call "Fun". We do interiors so injection molded components, headliners, armrests, pillar covers, and side panels. Some of them leather/pvc/cloth wrapped and some painted or film covered.

I used to make many of the parts for the 6, 8, and 10 speed GM automatic transmissions but I left that firm a while back and moved over to the Japanese OEM lines since they make more of their vehicles in the US than GM.
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Current projects are:
1964 Kaiser Jeep J200 Gladiator Truck getting a HMMWV take out 6.5l TD/4L80E/NV242HD
1972 CB450 (restoration project)
1973 CB350 (GP350 vintage race bike)
1971 CL350 (Sportsman 350 vintage race bike)
And a few other rust buckets I should probably sell.
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