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Thread: P0087 fuel rail pressure low limp under high loads

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Rinker View Post




    The same applies to sales, JK. Get interested in the P00087 limp problem programmatically and I'll be your customer...again. I have tons of real world experience that can be tapped into, if you stop selling, and start listening.


    Someone was always going to swing by with a local load and his 2006 LBZ.
    Get interested yourself and keep in mind it may take HOURS and I need to get back home. I am also a bit less optimistic abouth finding the LMM issue as readily as the LBZ based on table availability.

    I listen, I sell, and more importantly I fix problems and create solutions to prevent them. Heck I called in a favor to have a used set of injectors tested and then reported my findings here.
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  2. #62
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    On a perhaps related subject....

    I spoke with a midwest fuel injection shop owner recently about "white smoke at idle". The conversation began by him asking me what I knew about using ATF as a diesel fuel treatment. I told him that I didn't have a problem with it, and that the additional lubricity should, in theory, help with longevity. I also added that every fuel injection and fuel treatment company rep I spoke with a while back condemned using ATF - for obscure and not easily understood reasons.

    He (Matthew) told me that their shop had changed quite a few Duramax injector sets through the years for the white smoke problem. Since they also rebuild the injectors, their shop guy started looking at the parts, and noticed nearly all of the injectors removed for a white smoke problem contained a residue buildup inside the nozzle tip. There was no particular wear or other problem with the injector, just a buildup of residue that affected the nozzle sealing.

    The ATF question arose because the shop has a few customers who routinely add ATF to their fuel. One of them had to have a set of injectors replaced for a different reason, and their tech guy found no such residue inside the nozzles. The only difference was the use of ATF as a fuel treatment. Apparently, ATF in the fuel keeps the injectors clean.

    I asked Matthew if the traditional fuel treatments are keeping the injectors nozzles clean, and he told me that they're not seeing a difference. Interestingly, I spoke with Mark Rinker recently about a concentrated fuel system cleaning procedure some dealers have begun using at dealerships, to help solve some of the problems experienced by Duramax owners.

    Food for thought....

    Jim

  3. #63
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    I don't know how smart, safe or good for the engine this would be!!!!

    There is a limp mode torque limiting table that can be changed with EFILive. It limits torque above 2000 rpm. Changing it would not stop the CEL or fix the problem, but may stop you from having to clear codes all the time.

    Food for thought.

    Jay
    2023 Tahoe 3.0l diesel
    2013 Harley Switchback
    2021 Ram 2500 6.7l (sold)
    2018 Chevy Traverse (sold)
    2021 Silverado 3.0l LM2 (sold)
    2019 GMC Sierra 6.2l (sold)
    2019 Colorado ZR2(sold)
    2017 2500HD CC D/A (sold)
    2015 1500 CC High Country 6.2l (sold)
    2010 Chev 2500HD CC D/A (sold)
    2013 Chev 2500HD CC D/A (sold)
    2006 Chev 3500 CC D/A (sold)
    2005 Harley Ultra Classic (sold)

  4. #64
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    Without going into great detail, when the LBZ injectors that I mentoned previously were being tested it was discovered that they got worse when cleaned of varnish or with a new nozzle installed.


    I prefer to fix the problem not hide it by circumventing safety limits. Also there are undoubtedly many tables not present in the EFI tool making it difficult to find all paths to this particular limp mode.
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by cabletech View Post
    I don't know how smart, safe or good for the engine this would be!!!!

    There is a limp mode torque limiting table that can be changed with EFILive. It limits torque above 2000 rpm. Changing it would not stop the CEL or fix the problem, but may stop you from having to clear codes all the time.

    Food for thought.

    Jay
    Sounds like an interesting idea. I am willing to test it and pay for the development time necessary. My goal is simple...swap ECMs until I get to the end of the road (tip/nozzle problems) on this set. Past experience says this will be about 40k miles down the road. I have a core ECM from my 2006.
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  6. #66
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    Arrow

    Quote Originally Posted by Kennedy View Post
    Without going into great detail, when the LBZ injectors that I mentoned previously were being tested it was discovered that they got worse when cleaned of varnish or with a new nozzle installed.


    I prefer to fix the problem not hide it by circumventing safety limits. Also there are undoubtedly many tables not present in the EFI tool making it difficult to find all paths to this particular limp mode.
    Can the cause of high fuel return be identified? Do you know what component parts are the cause? Thanks,

    Jim

  7. #67
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    Ball seat erosion is evident and likely (speculative) due to dirt or debris.


    Lift pump, filtration, quality additive

    FWIW responding to an earlier post: Just because I sell something doesn't mean I push as an agenda for my own betterment. I'm a firm believer in the old addage ounce of prevention = pound of cure. I'd rather solve a problem than fix one any day...
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  8. #68
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    Yesterday I had a local call me with a 2007 LBZ exhibiting same P0087 symptoms. Had him remove the POS plastic fuel filter and stop by. System restriction good. Pump tested good ramping psi at idle.

    I made a couple of tuning changes to allow more RPM and TQ in limp mode (not convinced that this will work) and a single table change to his stock tune and we'll see what happens. Also set him up with a monitor to watch pressure, temp, and rate.

    This is a 70k "rebuilder" that is supposed to be legit miles. He hauls with it pretty much daily, but it's not yet at a point where it will act up on demand. Takes the better part of the day and maybe a hot soak to get it to act up. Thankfully it's local so if it persists I can do a ride along and hopefully find a work around.
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  9. #69
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    There are 2 tables for limp mode (torque & pulse width) and 1 torque table for when a DTC is set. I have not had a problem with my LBZ, but was going to try this if it happens.

    Jay
    2023 Tahoe 3.0l diesel
    2013 Harley Switchback
    2021 Ram 2500 6.7l (sold)
    2018 Chevy Traverse (sold)
    2021 Silverado 3.0l LM2 (sold)
    2019 GMC Sierra 6.2l (sold)
    2019 Colorado ZR2(sold)
    2017 2500HD CC D/A (sold)
    2015 1500 CC High Country 6.2l (sold)
    2010 Chev 2500HD CC D/A (sold)
    2013 Chev 2500HD CC D/A (sold)
    2006 Chev 3500 CC D/A (sold)
    2005 Harley Ultra Classic (sold)

  10. #70
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    I really don't care to disable protective functions on non race vehicles. It's best to tune the issue directly. That way if there is a real issue teh protective functions take ove. That said, I have had experiences with Race vehicles, all limp modes removed, DTC P0087 disabled in the tune file and it still set P0087.

    Not everything within EFI is as it appears and it is far from a complete set of tables.
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  11. #71
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    Winols would probably show all the tables. In order to change the way the ecm handles the under pressure condition, you would have to change the os itself. EFILive will never do that. You may be able to make changes with a hex editor, but that's way over my head.

    Jay
    2023 Tahoe 3.0l diesel
    2013 Harley Switchback
    2021 Ram 2500 6.7l (sold)
    2018 Chevy Traverse (sold)
    2021 Silverado 3.0l LM2 (sold)
    2019 GMC Sierra 6.2l (sold)
    2019 Colorado ZR2(sold)
    2017 2500HD CC D/A (sold)
    2015 1500 CC High Country 6.2l (sold)
    2010 Chev 2500HD CC D/A (sold)
    2013 Chev 2500HD CC D/A (sold)
    2006 Chev 3500 CC D/A (sold)
    2005 Harley Ultra Classic (sold)

  12. #72
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    I will continue to test and develop a "work around" but instinct tells me that operating under load in these conditions will probably hasten the demise of the injectors in question by elevating return fuel temps even further.

    For those facing this condition, you can take the truck in to a dealer and have the return rates tested (I've been told $300) but I'm afraid you'll just be spending money to learn something that we already know...
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  13. #73

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    The ideal solution would be to create a 'Custom Tune' with the P00087 programming fix, and make it widely available via the Diablosport / Predator handheld tuner.

    Why?

    1. No swapping ECMs
    2. Most people encountering this error will be outside warranty anyway
    3. Handheld gives ability to read/reset codes if P00087 persists, or as others arise
    4. Easy to 'return to stock' if this method of overriding factory protection doesn't work for this user
    It could even be stacked on a mild tow/economy tune...made available for wide distribution. I'd gladly give it away via my website to people having problems with this programming error by GM. It appears to be resolved in the factory LML programming - or maybe nobody has rolled up enough miles yet to see the problem arising...


    Anyone experienced with creating Diablosport Custom Tunes?
    Last edited by Mark Rinker; 07-27-2012 at 11:46.
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  14. #74
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    Sending out a device with my local customer tomorrow. Five test files loaded plus ability to read and clear codes.
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  15. #75

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    JK - I am headed empty to Johnsburg, IL tomorrow (Tuesday 7/31) afternoon, loading 31' 12K# boat for return to Minneapolis. Not sure that I'll have enough boat, heat or hills to trigger a P00087, but likely if over 85f and I run a bit deeper into the throttle than normal.

    Let me know if you want me to swing by, I'll leave a bit earlier.
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  16. #76
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    If you find that you are in position to make this happen at will, and have time shoot me an email with ETA.

    Bear in mind we'll probably need to run up to I 29 and drive/stop tune repeat and may take several attempts.

    I did not hear back from my local guy, but I think he was out with a load today.
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  17. #77
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    I guess more importantly, can you deviate from planned route or are you oversize and restricted?
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  18. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kennedy View Post
    Someone was always going to swing by with a local load and his 2006 LBZ.
    Get interested yourself and keep in mind it may take HOURS and I need to get back home. I am also a bit less optimistic abouth finding the LMM issue as readily as the LBZ based on table availability.

    I listen, I sell, and more importantly I fix problems and create solutions to prevent them. Heck I called in a favor to have a used set of injectors tested and then reported my findings here.
    JK - Thanks for making yourself available this week for me to swing by. As fate would have it, there was a lengthy delay at the marina, followed by a low hanging telephone wire about two miles down the road that wasted alot of time in my day.

    On the way home across WI, I only had two codes set, even though the temperatures were in the 90s. Both were shortly after getting underway, after sitting still and idling.

    Heat soak and hot fuel is my hypothesis.


    We'll keep trying to connect and test this thing!
    2011 Chevrolet Tahoe 5.3L daily driver
    • Previous owner of two 1994 6.5L K3500s, '01, '02, and '05 6.6L K2500s, '04 C4500, '06 K3500 dually, '06 K3500 SRW, '09 K3500HD SRW, '05 Denali
    • Total GM diesel miles to date : ~950K

  19. #79
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    Still testing here. Tune 3 reportedly went all day yesterday without tripping. I told tester that I'd like to have him try (within reason) to get this code to set so we'll see what happens.

    Too early to tell, too many variables so we need to keep on testing.

    How high were/are your fuel temps reaching?

    Thinking we may try twin lift pump setup to help the CP3 and potentially increase circulation to potentially help with pump temps
    Last edited by Kennedy; 08-03-2012 at 07:16.
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

  20. #80
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    Default Positive results

    More testing/validation required, but it appears as though tune #3 is doing what it is supposed to. Rail psi's were holding at or near desired and no P0087. Fuel temp pushed up even higher as I had expected.

    We need to get lift pumps on this truck to see what impact we can have on fuel temps.
    Kennedy Diesel-owner
    More than just a salesman-I use and test the products that I sell on a daily basis!
    Superflow Lie Detector in house
    2002 Chev K2500HD D/A CC Long LT 11.77@ 124mph at 7700# fuel only-e.t. needs help
    2005 Chev K3500SRW D/A CC Long LT(SOLD)
    2007 Chev K2500 Classic EC Short LT (Sold)
    2012 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC Long LTZ Happy Birthday to me! Built 1 working day after my birthday and delivered 7 days later.
    2016 GMC K3500SRW D/A CC short LTZ

    Custom tuning in house using EFI Live tuning software!

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