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6.2L/6.5L Tech Tech forum containing the best technical information about these engines. Please post in the related 6.2L & 6.5L forums. We'll transfer the best topic threads to this forum.

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  #21  
Old 03-12-2007, 02:47 PM
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I agree with RJ and JK

Its a real bummer for the unknowing folks out there to get hoodwinked into buying this crap.

Any dyno that will test rear wheel power can surely be used to do comparisons.
Even if the dyno is not completely accurate at least you can tell if you added anything with whatever you did in the way of mods.

I have used both engine and chassis dyno's and the chassis dyno sure tells the story as far as seat of the pants usable HP.

Back in my boat racing days we used an engine dyno a lot to do testing on different combinations of engine setups.

We also ran all of our engines on the dyno to break them in and check for any issues prior to installing in the boat.

Was a far better way than having to haul the boat to the river and fight all the fools while we made a few passes.

Well I am going to stick with locally rebuilt injectors and pumps.

I have never had any issues with the local rebuilder I use. I think if folks stay with dependable local rebuilders or the fine folks that advertise here they will do fine.

Ebay and other online outlets are full of stuff that looks and sounds great BUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTT!!! Buyer Be Ware

I can see where under very high output that the special marine injectors will definately be advantagous to get the fuel in within the optimal burn window.

I also dont see any reason for selecting these for a pickup application no matter what the use. (Performance marine)

Just my 2 cents worth

Robyn
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  #22  
Old 03-12-2007, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmctd
Can help at hi-rpm, where the injection window is narrow - re-read post #4
The injection "speed" is determined by piston/plunger speed, correct? Unless the factory nozzles are so small mechanical twist, IP line expansion occures, etc I do no believe dwell is a factor either.

IMO Dyno testing is not reliable enough to test for this as well. I've never once seen any dyno within 20HP on the same config. Have no idea which Dynos these are, just crowd pleasers at IRP.

Volume testing/measuring is the only way to be sure.
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79 Olds Cutlass, 410ci/700R4 - Currently Restoring
1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse Turbo, currently 12PSI max boost
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  #23  
Old 03-12-2007, 03:42 PM
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Good thread! I would not, however, go so far as to call someone a liar without reliable and verified dyno data in hand - even then I would give the claim maker some percent of leeway due to a difference in dynos and powertrains. I'd prefer to let the data speak for itself. Till then, I can ask questions...

Jim
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  #24  
Old 03-12-2007, 05:44 PM
gmctd gmctd is offline
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I think if they want to advertise specific increase, they should at least list the associated improvements required for the product to be effective.

That's correct, Andy - but you generally don't put the marine injectors on a truck yer granny drives up to wally-world to get her hadacol flask refilled.

You would be trying to get the last ounce of performance out of a truck with 18:1's, -4911 cranked to the hilt, 4" exhaust, HX35 or so, and etc, where you would be pulling thru the upper rpm range, and the narrow injection window would benefit from the reduced delay of the hi-flows.

And, the increased injection pressure would produce finer mist, reducing the size of the sprayed fuel globules, decreasing the time to complete combustion

The 'marines' are good for hi-performance in the upper rpm ranges - what do they do for a truck that's used for towing, or the truck you drive to work every day, trying to get better fuel mileage.

The finer spray-mist would certainly help fuel economy - would also help to make more power.

How effective are they with indirect injection?

I'd like to see some data on that - particularly on the EFI system that's been 'hot-chipped'
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'96 Dodge 3500HD cc 2wd drw............'89 GMC 3500 cc 4wd drw
5.9 12v #10TST 6sp SBC13-1.375.......6.5TD EFI maxEtorq v2.0 DSG
DODGE makes it CUMMINS shakes it.....4L80E 205 4.10 Dana60\70HD
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  #25  
Old 03-12-2007, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmctd

That's correct, Andy - but you generally don't put the marine injectors on a truck yer granny drives up to wally-world to get her hadacol flask refilled.

You would be trying to get the last ounce of performance out of a truck with 18:1's, -4911 cranked to the hilt, 4" exhaust, HX35 or so, and etc, where you would be pulling thru the upper rpm range, and the narrow injection window would benefit from the reduced delay of the hi-flows.
So, in your opinion, high flows offer no realistic gains in a stock 6.5 with say less than 80mm3?

GMCTD, thoughts on the correct testing method to dis/prove their worth?
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  #26  
Old 03-12-2007, 07:02 PM
gmctd gmctd is offline
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That's correct - only thing they seem to do for a stock truck is mess with the idle - and, again, I'm talking DS4 with hi-pop\hi-flow injectors.

Hi-pops, with or without hi-flow nozzles, do create finer spray-mist, which is good for combustion - hi-flow is not needed for street-use, meaning a work-about play-about truck.

But hi-pops are hard on the camring and rollers - ceramic rollers won't cure that, even with hi-lubricity fuel.

I'd like to see the tests run with the Tech2\equiv, maybe carcode, autoengineuity, wester's, etc, scanner set to monitor Des\Meas Timing, Fuel Rate, FI pulse width, Fuel Temperature, for each run.

Tests run with +3.5deg Base Timing and -0.5deg TDCO, then with +8.5deg BT and -1.94deg TDCO on stock injectors first, then on the marine versions
Or, at least, injectors matched to the lower limit - what is it, 1785psi? - and matched to the high limit - 2215psi? - whatever the lo-pop and the hi-pops are now considered to be.

Same thing with the reflashes.

(that's prolly pushin' the wish-list a little too far, but how else will you dis\prove the claims?)

Stock flash\timing\injectors, then hi-pops, then hi-pop\hi-flows, then the reflash\-1.94 timing with stock, then the hi-pops, then the h-p\h-f injectors.
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'96 Dodge 3500HD cc 2wd drw............'89 GMC 3500 cc 4wd drw
5.9 12v #10TST 6sp SBC13-1.375.......6.5TD EFI maxEtorq v2.0 DSG
DODGE makes it CUMMINS shakes it.....4L80E 205 4.10 Dana60\70HD
6 in a row makes it go.......................Grandpa's big truck
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  #27  
Old 03-12-2007, 07:31 PM
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Opinions on dyno repeatability?

We need to recruit a Stanadyne shop and a few CC cups.
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98 Burb 350 1/2T/4l60/246/10Bolts - Wifes Ride
80 Olds Cutlass 6.2/Studded/700R4/12Bolt 3.30s/IP=4544 Juiced by JK/Best MPG=30
79 Olds Cutlass, 410ci/700R4 - Currently Restoring
1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse Turbo, currently 12PSI max boost
39 Chevy Rat Rod
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2002 Scrambler 500
2007 Sportsman 90
2003 Kazuma 50
2001 XR50
1990 Murry 46"
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  #28  
Old 03-12-2007, 08:34 PM
sidehackbob sidehackbob is offline
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Default More fuel?

Please allow me to flaunt my ignorance..

Why not use "6.2 low pops" to get the full fuel load out of the mech 6.5 pump,
It could be timed to begin the squirt at the right time right?
sounds awful easy to get "more flow"
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  #29  
Old 03-12-2007, 09:53 PM
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My answer to that would be that you would lose a valuable component of the spray 'pattern'.

The higher injection pressure creates finer spray, results in better burn, which results in increased power

More flow would not benefit if any of it failed to ignite and fully combust - that is the problem with mechanically injected Diesel engines at upper rpm ranges

Far as dyno repeatabilty, the same operator on the same dyno, each test run where the ambient temperature remained the same cool 60deg all day, stable humidity, blower in front of the charge-air cooler to maintain constant IAT for each test, in-tank fuel temperature maintained at close to ambient so in-pump fuel temperature would reflect the actual work the pump was doing with the different injectors, driving tire tread temps would remain stable with the cool ambients, drive-train temps could be stabilized for all the tests - I think the tests would be reliable for baseline.

Those factors varying from cool in the morning for the first test, to drivetrain and tires and rollers smoking for the last tests in the heat of the day would throw the tests off
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'96 Dodge 3500HD cc 2wd drw............'89 GMC 3500 cc 4wd drw
5.9 12v #10TST 6sp SBC13-1.375.......6.5TD EFI maxEtorq v2.0 DSG
DODGE makes it CUMMINS shakes it.....4L80E 205 4.10 Dana60\70HD
6 in a row makes it go.......................Grandpa's big truck

Last edited by gmctd; 03-12-2007 at 11:57 PM.
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  #30  
Old 03-12-2007, 11:04 PM
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Question Higher pressure lift pump?

Would a higher pressure lift pump benefit IP and injector performance on the 6.5td, or?
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  #31  
Old 03-12-2007, 11:33 PM
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There has been some discussion that turning up the housing pressure in the DS4 will result in crisper injection pressure events - it presently runs from 25psi at low rpm to over 125psi at hi rpm.

Excess fuel is returned to the tank.

One thing that must be remembered when considering upgrading the lift pump - Diesel fuel foams, easily - warm Diesel fuel foams very easily.

More warm fuel returned to the tank will further aerate the fuel, causing even more problems at low fuel levels in warm weather - DTC35\equiv, injection pulse width too short - usually results from bubbles in the fuel.

Higher pressure pumps are also usualy higher volume pumps - the replacement solenoid-type flow-thru pumps like the oem version on your truck are produced in several ranges up to 14psi and 35gph, and those are designed to shut off when they reach spec'ed pressure.

They are direct replacement, and IIRC, Bill and JK both offer a version for high performance - and, they are flow-thru if they die, which won't leave you totally stranded.

The ideal would be to maintain ~5psi at full throttle when 'hot-chipped' or 'hot-flashed' - we're doing some experimenting with inlet\outlet diameters in the fuel cannister and DS4 inlet, with the upgraded solenoid pumps, to enable more volume at the lower pressures, while maintaining the pressures.

Upgrading the EFI 6.5 Diesel fuel supply system is not quite as easy as with a gasser

Increasing supply pressure on the DB2 must also be managed, as increased housing pressure severely effects the advance system
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'96 Dodge 3500HD cc 2wd drw............'89 GMC 3500 cc 4wd drw
5.9 12v #10TST 6sp SBC13-1.375.......6.5TD EFI maxEtorq v2.0 DSG
DODGE makes it CUMMINS shakes it.....4L80E 205 4.10 Dana60\70HD
6 in a row makes it go.......................Grandpa's big truck

Last edited by gmctd; 03-13-2007 at 12:07 AM.
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  #32  
Old 03-13-2007, 08:29 AM
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I ran my 96 with std programming HF/HP injectors, my boost control and intercooler and got excellent results.

Unfortunately this was before my dyno. I feel that the HF/HP injectors and a good healthy increase in boost is a VERY good recipe for power/performance and there is no idle issue whatsoever. I'm not sure where this came from...
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  #33  
Old 03-13-2007, 08:34 AM
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JK, any comments on the repeatibility of Dyno testing? Within the resolution of injector testing?
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98 Burb 350 1/2T/4l60/246/10Bolts - Wifes Ride
80 Olds Cutlass 6.2/Studded/700R4/12Bolt 3.30s/IP=4544 Juiced by JK/Best MPG=30
79 Olds Cutlass, 410ci/700R4 - Currently Restoring
1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse Turbo, currently 12PSI max boost
39 Chevy Rat Rod
2004 Sportsman 600
2002 Scrambler 500
2007 Sportsman 90
2003 Kazuma 50
2001 XR50
1990 Murry 46"
43 Total pistons!
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  #34  
Old 03-13-2007, 12:04 PM
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It doesn't really matter how "accurate" a dyno is, as long as it's consistant and you use the same machine each time.
I think it would be very difficult to do back to back tests comparing injectors. It takes a good bit of time to change them out and chances are, some other variables are going to change as well. It may not be that important and it may still give you a good idea of the performance value, just don't take the numbers to the bank.
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  #35  
Old 03-13-2007, 05:58 PM
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So you folks are saying you can't get 40hp out of these injectors, btw I'm ordering the 40hp injectors from SS next week (cheaper than stock).

Then how does Bully Dog sell ..............240HP injectors..........................?
(For Cummins that is.)

Its a thinker!!!!
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  #36  
Old 03-13-2007, 07:01 PM
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Default My thoughts exactly

robertb6963 So you folks are saying you can't get 40hp out of these injectors, btw I'm ordering the 40hp injectors from SS next week (cheaper than stock).

Then how does Bully Dog sell ..............240HP injectors..........................?
(For Cummins that is.)

Its a thinker!!!!

This is what I have been wondering too. Like I said, even IF the injectors aren't able to give more power, they are cheaper than stock ones and over 15,000 kms later, still no troubles.
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  #37  
Old 03-13-2007, 08:09 PM
gmctd gmctd is offline
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No - the problem is, if you installed those injectors in a showroom stock Cummins, you would not get 240 more HP - takes a few other tweaks to get there.

That would appear to be a big rip-off to the uninitiated forum-illiterate newbie owner who'd just plunked down the bucks and poked them into his new truck - based on that advertised claim.
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'96 Dodge 3500HD cc 2wd drw............'89 GMC 3500 cc 4wd drw
5.9 12v #10TST 6sp SBC13-1.375.......6.5TD EFI maxEtorq v2.0 DSG
DODGE makes it CUMMINS shakes it.....4L80E 205 4.10 Dana60\70HD
6 in a row makes it go.......................Grandpa's big truck
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  #38  
Old 03-13-2007, 08:42 PM
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I know what you mean, if you mean people should know to do other upgrades before adding injectors (intake, ext, pyro, chip, etc). I always thought injectors were a great way to add lots of power, am I wrong? Do they add just a little? Because 240HP is kinda silly I think.
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  #39  
Old 03-13-2007, 09:27 PM
gmctd gmctd is offline
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Now you know why MP started this thread - who's got the deep skinny on this stuff, or can we duplicate it?
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'96 Dodge 3500HD cc 2wd drw............'89 GMC 3500 cc 4wd drw
5.9 12v #10TST 6sp SBC13-1.375.......6.5TD EFI maxEtorq v2.0 DSG
DODGE makes it CUMMINS shakes it.....4L80E 205 4.10 Dana60\70HD
6 in a row makes it go.......................Grandpa's big truck
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  #40  
Old 03-23-2007, 11:30 PM
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Dam, I wish I saw this thread a bit sooner...

I just bought these from US Diesel for my 1999 6.5TD:

[(8) 6.5L Performance Injectors +30-40hp / 94-00
# 1040166B
Your Price: $499.00

1993-00 6.5L Turbo Diesel Performance Injector Set (8) +30-40hp, +60 lb ft torque
[ More info ] [ See more like this ] ]

I take it this is the sort of items / claims that are being discussed here? I have yet to have them installed as I am waiting for my Kennedy Intercooler to arrive to go along with these injectors, I also purchased the KD turbo controller and a 4" exhaust from JCW and new injector lines (OEM replacements). I was hoping these items would significantly increase performance of my 6.5TD, but now i am beginning to wonder... almost concerned to the point that I may have been one of those fooled by the '+30-40hp' claim.

I hope I am wrong and it all works out in the end, but i wont know till it is all installed in April sometime by my mechanic.
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