After market heads

[john8662]

Word on the street is that DSG did try a few of the copy blocks or "AMG Style" blocks in the beginning. It was told that there were issues with the blocks. The block had numerous issues with machining specifications, they had to check everything on each block, only to find issues. A few engines made it into service, some have run well, a few came back with extremely low oil pressure problems. The engines were taken apart and the normal causes were narrowed out of the investigation. The issue was likely a oil passage issue in the casting.

They are currently using AMG shortblocks now.

J

[Kevin]

Robyn hit it on the head.........

DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing.
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing.

Follow the money. DSG pays so they must be great & CCH must be trash because they aren't a supporting vendor.

This trashing of CCH beacause of how they advertise there heads reminds me of someone who sold glow plugs. No name on them(removed name from package). But he is a supporting vendor so it didnt matter.

You should base your descision to buy from CCH because of the product & price, not because of where they advertise.

[Jim Faire]

Robyn hit it on the head.........

DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing.
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing.

So far, so good.

Follow the money. DSG pays so they must be great & CCH must be trash because they aren't a supporting vendor.

Uh-oh... mom, I'm getting scared.

This trashing of CCH beacause of how they advertise there heads reminds me of someone who sold glow plugs. No name on them(removed name from package). But he is a supporting vendor so it didnt matter.

You should base your descision to buy from CCH because of the product & price, not because of where they advertise.

The best reason to belong to one of these forums is to get the real facts, not the sales propaganda, from people who actually use the stuff. We debate, we argue, and usually, the truth bubbles to the surface. If we can't be honest in those debates, we just joined the Banana Republics.

Tell me it ain't so...

The comments about the AMG-style blocks are bery pertinent... lots of vendors are advertising AMG-style blocks, when (as far as I've been able to determine), AMG is only verified as selling to GM, penninsular, Kennedy, and Uncle Sam. A lot of these 'AMG-style' blocks are in fact offshore castings. They LOOK nice, but they're not really AMG.

For the price of parts, I think we can at least demand honesty, site vendor or not. Personally, I expect a higher standard from site vendors, and I'm most often rewarded. That's why I order from them.

But my past experience with RJ in Calgary with 'AMG-Style' blocks has made me wary, and this DSG thing doesn't reassure me, as DSG (Red Deer) was going to be my next choice.

This RJ-performance block:

http://www.dieselenginemotor.com/die...image/629.html

used to get advertised as 'AMG-Style'... looks good, no? But it ain't AMG.

Forums are great places to get:

- Opinions from people who use the stuff
- information from people who have looked in places I haven't
- ideas about things best not overlooked

If forums are only for indiscriminate advertising, then I was wrong to bash Steaksauce for a year. That was HIS claim, and I never believed it.

Tell me it ain't so.

[More Power]

Robyn hit it on the head.........

DSG is also a supporting vendor of TDP and this is a good thing.
Supporting these vendors is also a very good thing.

Follow the money. DSG pays so they must be great & CCH must be trash because they aren't a supporting vendor.

This trashing of CCH beacause of how they advertise there heads reminds me of someone who sold glow plugs. No name on them(removed name from package). But he is a supporting vendor so it didnt matter.

You should base your descision to buy from CCH because of the product & price, not because of where they advertise.

If you believe I would not recommend the best vendor regardless of whether they advertise, you don't know me very well.

If any TDP advertiser is selling anything that isn't exactly what it is advertised to be or is not satisfying its customers, I want to know about it. I'll help them see the light or they won't advertise here. Just so you know, there are a few vendors who are not advertising here (they were turned away) because they don't/can't fullfill the above.

There's a lot more money in selling gizmos. If I were doing this for the money.... I'd be selling everything known to exist for these engines. This web site does not need a single advertiser.

Jim

[Jim Faire]

If you believe I would not recommend the best vendor regardless of whether they advertise, you don't know me very well.

If any TDP advertiser is selling anything that isn't exactly what it is advertised to be or is not satisfying its customers, I want to know about it. I'll help them see the light or they won't advertise here.
Jim

Okay, I'll buy that. I'm not doubting your integrity.

What I can't figure out was the response to Chrisk1500 (above). DSGs website says "Hummer-style" block. Like RJs website used to say "Optimax". Like Diesel-Direct produced 'AMG-style' blocks right from the boat docks.

In all these cases, one is left to draw the inference that the block is produced by AMG, and in at least two cases, that was proven to be a mistaken assumption.

Note that none of them are "selling anything that isn't exactly what it is advertised to be" (your words, not mine), but the buyer is, I believe, led to assume the block is AMG.

It seems to me that if it really WAS an AMG block, they would be proudly trumpeting that fact for all to hear. John does. So does Penninsular. To their benefit.

Missy is chasing after the same assurances from CCH. Just tell the truth, people.

Chinese-made blocks may indeed be just fine, don't get me wrong. All I want is clarity... if they ARE genuine AMG castings, then make that clear. If they're Hong-bo Engine Works castings, make that clear.

Let the buyers decide on their own. Open discussion greatly accelerates that process, and is perhaps the best incentive for site vendors to remain honest in theri claims... that honesty buys them a large volume of committed customers; dishonesty produces equally committed customers, if ya know what I mean.

[john8662]

If they're Hong-bo Engine Works

That's a good one, meaining, I found it funny!

The AMG-Style product is just because they mean that it's a copy of the block that AMG started producing after GM quit production.

Can this be mis-leading? Uh huh!

Hung-Bo Engine Foundary, copyin' heads n' blocks all day long...

[Robyn]

Well now

Hmmmm we seem to agree to disagree in some instances.

My view is still, that its a great idea to support vendors that support this board.

This board and all that it entails is in and of itself a commercial venture.
This is a GREAT thing.
The help and service that this board has provided so many people over the years its been here is nothing short of a miracle.

All I can say for sure is that I have nothing bad to say about the service and product I got from CCH.

The practice of skewed advertising is pretty much a standard practice anymore.

A phrase using the word "Like" when describing a product is a dead giveaway that its not the real deal.

In my business I use the Wording AR-15 "TYPE" carbine. I dont want to get sued by Colt for using a copyrighted name.

My Model is a CM 1500
The product is called the 502 ThunderSabre. Its a 50 caliber carbine. The 502 is a trade name. ThunderSabre is a trade name.

The ATF requires that the thing have a model number, unique serial number (group) and the name and place of the Mfg.

As far as these engines and parts go, the govnt is not there making every tom dick and harry put their name on it.
Still though trade names are protected.

AMG cant stop folks from producing a V8 engine block that will work in place of their unit.

As long as its not being advertised as an "Optimizer" or has other trademarks on it that are owned by them the issue is pretty much a moot point.

I "do" think that the sellers would do themselves right to just say, "This is an aftermarket part" Nuff said.

As far as the other sellers, if they are having issues and are not selling what they say they are, this stuff will be self limiting and the jungle drum works well to sort out the "Good the bad and the ugly"

I personally am going to fly by the seat of my pants as I usually do and continue to ask questions as I go and not rely on advertising to make up my mind.

If its a major trade item "brand name" I read things like epinions and such to see who is talking about it and what sort of "smack" is coming down.
I recently bought a new DSLR camera and did read the on line opinions for about a month before making up my mind.

There were several factors that influenced my final decision.

IMHO here at TDP we need to pass along good experiences as well as bad.

If you have had good luck with a product, let us know, if you have a bad time, let us know.

All companies will have a bozo somewhere in the mix that may influence things badly with someone so we need to look at this too.

I try to overlook advertising and look directly at the product. Is it good? Does it work well? Is it cost effective? What is/was the company service like?

The best and most honest of advertising can make a real POS look great.

The most obscure and off the wall little company with no advertising or poor advertising just might have the best product for the best price.

I have looked at DSG's page and sorted through what they have to say.

Looks good but there are a few little anomalies there as there are over at CCH's page. Nothing bad but if you dig deep enough I think one can find these anywhere.

I myself try to keep my sources confidential, and I do this because I have done the research on the product that I am puting my name on (502 stuff) and there exists the real possibility that the machine shop may also make parts for others that have not done well and this stuff all slides back and can make things look bad.

The company that produces my parts does so for about a dozen other companies.
Unfortunately some of these companies have screwed folks over and I dont want to be connected in any way with that crap.

I pay to have my parts made to spec and it always is and I put my name on it.

Hmmmmmm If it works good and lasts a long time, who care where it came from.

AS far as AMG/GEP these companies are there to service big contracts and take care of one job, MAKING $$$$$$

These companies did not set up to take care of the rag tag band of 6.5/6.2 diesel lovers that are still out there plying the highways with their 7- 25 year old GM trucks.

This is big business thats looking to the future and to large commercial/Govnt contracts and basically could care less about us.
The only connection they have to us is that they just happen to produce a product that will retrofit easily into our trucks.

My views here are not meant to be hurtful or in any way degrade the fine products that these companies produce.The fact is that they are not
required to take care of GM's customer base of the last many years.

The aftermarket, whoever and however they are will do that,and it seems that they are here and doing what they do best.

Just some thoughts.

Support our vendors and most of all be honest about your experiences good or bad

Hope this finds all of you well.

Robyn

[Ratau]

It took me some time to read all the replies to this topic as I didn’t followed from scratch. Robyn’s original request was to reply on how many “BAD” heads from CCW and ..... was out there.

All the replies added a lot off good value to the forum but there wasn’t anyone who reported one that actually failed. Lots off reports on quality that’s not up to the known standards or OEM specification, that’s true.

Here in South Africa we salvage every part on a 6.2 no matter broken or not. Rather try and fix it than sit with nothing.

I replaced four GM heads that was cracked.

So my question: Was the heads manufactured by GM ever to their own specifications or did they battled to get it up to standard.

“WHAT IF IT BRAKES” and did it indeed brake?

[Robyn]

The original heads had issues.
GM made some running changes in the design but the problem was never totally fixed.

The issue on this thread still seems to be that nobody should be marketing aftermarket heads without proper authorization and if they do they need to make it well known that they are copies.

My personal opinion is that if the stuff works and I can afford it, Im going to use it.

The factory stuff if you can get it is very spendy and it will suffer the same failure over time as the stuff that came on the engine originally.

Some of the aftermarket seelers are indeed marketing their product with their own name on it.
CCH is just marketing heads as either reman or new and they dont make any mention as to where the stuff comes from.
The new ones dont say GM on them.

In this day of spiralling prices the end user must do what they can to keep repair costs in check me thinks.

I have a set of CCH heads on a 94 Burb and they work fine. The long term reliability is still up for grabs.

The only feedback to speak of has been the issue of morality, legality ect.

All I want to hear about is some actual failures of these aftermarket heads and what actually happened.
I have seen a buttload of used up and cracked GM stuff so the story is pretty much there for all to see.

If there are failures then we can point the finger at the possible flaws.
Until we see some failures then the issue of whether the parts are good or not is just pure speculation.

Several major diesel engine manufactures such as Cummins to name one have plants in China and produce a ton of stuff there that I know good and well is being shipped all over the globe.

This issue will not die here I am sure. I really think that if we never hear or see one bad head from the aftermarket that there will still be many that will call trash on them just because they are not GM products.

The stuff from DSG is marketed under their own name and they are a supporter or TDP.
This is a good reason to support them me thinks.

As far as the other suppliers I think the probability is good that all these heads are coming from the same foundary and find their way into the US market from various points around the globe.

We shall see. I am still wanting to hear of one of these heads thats seen clock time and failed due to a fault in manufacture or materials.

The sets I have seen all seemed to be great stuff.

Later.

Robyn

[More Power]

Robyn, You said:

GM made some running changes in the design but the problem was never totally fixed.

The factory stuff if you can get it is very spendy and it will suffer the same failure over time as the stuff that came on the engine originally.

While what you say is mostly true for GM produced cylinder heads (I've seen used GM heads that were not cracked), it's not for those cast by Navistar since 11/01. Navistar was tasked with solving the cracking problem in both the blocks and the heads. Aside from a number of design changes, Nav also changed the cast-iron alloy to include more chromium. The end result was a new cylinder head that I've yet to hear have produced a crack.

The CCH web site ad for their aftermarket 6.5 heads says "GM Cylinder Heads" at the top and "MFG:GM" in the spec list. You and I, and everyone here know what the situation is, but most other 6.5 owners would likely assume their heads are made by GM.... On the other hand, their eBay ad clearly indicates they are aftermarket. If CCH added the word "aftermarket" to their web site ad, I'd be OK with it.

Jim

[Robyn]

Jim I called the folks at CCH on that very thing. Their opinion is that the ad is refering to the Engine being GM not the manufacture of the head that they are selling.

I asked them to include a truth in writing about the source but have yet to see them change it.
They probably wont either as as they put it, Nobody is complaining.

Just part of everyday life in the real world me thinks.

[Jim Faire]

The CCH web site ad for their aftermarket 6.5 heads says "GM Cylinder Heads" at the top and "MFG:GM" in the spec list. You and I, and everyone here know what the situation is, but most other 6.5 owners would likely assume their heads are made by GM.... On the other hand, their eBay ad clearly indicates they are aftermarket. If CCH added the word "aftermarket" to their web site ad, I'd be OK with it.

Jim

Not to be a PITA, but their ad also says Model: Truck when it's fairly obvious that it's a cylinder head they're talking about, not a truck.

I really think you're splitting hairs on this one, Boss. From everything I can see, it's fairly obvious that these are aftermarket. I stand by my earlier comments, where customers can be misled by the phrase 'hummer-style' blocks. If CCH's MFG:GM is deemed to be misleading, I think 'Hummer-style' equally implies AMD.

Sorry... that's how I see it.

[Robyn]

I certainly did not intend for us to fuss over such pissy little stuff like advertising but really just wanted to ferret out whether the product has seen any downfall.

I will agree with Jim that supporting a vendor who pays to be here is a good thing.

I have reached a point in my life that grumbling about something I cant change is just too much work.

I am still of the opinion that AMG/GEP and the rest of these folks really dont care a tinkers damn about the rag tag band of 6.5 lovers out here in the market place.

I will however give you this, if I see a nice writeup in a major publication that AMG/GEP is very concerned about the civilian market and really wants to support us and take care of us as customers I will trot right over and write out a detailed retraction to my previous statement and embellish it well with apologies.

I am not going to hold my breath though.

I am still wanting to hear of some nasty failures of these flawed aftermarket heads. I want to see pictures with precups laying in pieces and nasty old cracks running all over the firedeck that look like a troop of spiders invaded the thing.

Just bring me one story that proves that these are indeed not worth the time to look at.

Just remember, I would love to buy US made stuff as many others want to. I just want the stuff at a price that I can afford.

$670 for a set of complete heads to my door is a bargain especially when they are not someone elses cast offs that may have been subjected to lord knows what..

I really dont wish to debate the moral or ethical issue in this thread.
If I have an engine that is down and I need the rig, I need parts that are going to fix the thing and get it back on the road and do a good job.

I have debated morals and ethics with many people over many issues and it never quits.

If the sellers are marketing junk then we need to make it known and I will be the first to howl if I find junk, but so far such has not been the case.

The reason for the influx of the clones is the lack of good customer support on the local (US) level.

Just cruising

Robyn

[More Power]

I just spoke to Trent Millard at DSG about 6.5 cylinder blocks, cylinder heads and their own web site advertising. I found it most enlightening.

Trent said that their Titan 6.5L engines are new units built with the latest AM General castings - both heads and blocks. I mentioned that saying "Hummer -Style" would not be as effective in an ad as saying "Genuine AM General castings". He said he'd change it.

They do not sell complete longblocks or drop-in engines with aftermarket heads, but they do sell aftermarket heads separately. I asked that they indicate "aftermarket" on the ad pages for the aftermarket heads. He said he would.

They do not sell aftermarket cylinder blocks for the 6.5. Trent said he looked at the imported blocks, and found them to be inferior pieces.

Trent said the first batch of imported 6.5 heads they acquired appeared to be quality units, and have had no customer complaints. The valve guides, for example, were steel inserts, instead of machined cast. The latest batch of imported heads they bought did not have the steel valve guide inserts and were rougher looking. They are in the process of evaluating them..... I also mentioned that a member here bought a set of aftermarket heads, and removed one of the precups, which had metal debris under the cup and that the cup was magnetic where the OEM cups are not magnetic. Trent thought that was interesting, and said he'd check that out as well. Trent said they won't sell problem parts.

Jim

[Robyn]

JIm
This is interesting news. Good deal to know they are offering some top quality stuff and are willing to advertise just what they are selling.

I was chatting with the owner of a local shop here that has been bringing in the aftermarket castings. He is getting them bare and then installing the parts from GM heads that are cracked. He removes the precups that are good with no cracks as welll as the valves, springs and such. The heads are all refit to specs then decked lightly to assure a good final fit and finish.

He had been using one of the outfits that were selling the stuff complete but had a couple sets that were bad (Not CCH) He then brokered a deal to get bare castings.
I found out he has been doing this for about 3 years and to date has had zero issues.
He sells his stuff only out the door to customers that bring him a set of heads.

Its understood right up front that the castings are aftermarket and that most of the parts are used (remachined)

He also runs a tap through all the holes and makes sure the finished product is ready to go to work.
When he sendds them out they are painted and all spiffy.

He is not sure where the heads originate from but is like me and suspects china.

Good to hear that there are some folks trying to do a good job.

I have a date here soon to go look at a New China Block.
This same shop has one on order for a customer and they are going to build up a 6.5 to replkace one that has a broken main web. (Broke clean loose) The engine lost almost all oil pressure but still ran ok.
When the pulled it apart it was not immediately evident that the center main was broken clean loose.
It did not hit water but cracked all the way down and into the cam bearing area and allowed the oil pressure to leak badly.
I am supprised that it did not come apart.

Its was in a 97 Burb 2500 4x4.
They are using a lot of the original engine to build the new one.
The heads, cam and lifters,pistons, rods, pushrods, VC's Pan and the other incidentals.
They are still thinkiong about what to do for a crank. The crank that was in it is not broken and is not showing any cracks with a mag job.
I urged him to toss it. They may go with a Scat steel crank.

I am hoping to be able to see the new block before they stuff it all together.

Pete intends to check all the critical dims on the thing and run a bar through the mainline to see how good it is.

He also wants to check the cylinders to see if they are perpendicular to the crank and to make sure there are not any other issues.

This will be sweet to see first hand if this little creature measures up.

The original engine in that Burb had only 79800 miles on it so other than the broken main web it was like new inside

later

Robyn

[Jim Faire]

Thank you. (pass the salt... this crow isn't bad, but it could use a little catsup).

It's nice to know that these are indeed AMG blocks... there is just no way I would want to pay that much for a 'copy'. Like I said, advertising them as genuine AM General seems like a no-brainer idea, and one that would make the customer feel more secure.

Thanks again for following up on that.
Jim

I just spoke to Trent Millard at DSG about 6.5 cylinder blocks, cylinder heads and their own web site advertising. I found it most enlightening.

Trent said that their Titan 6.5L engines are new units built with the latest AM General castings - both heads and blocks. I mentioned that saying "Hummer -Style" would not be as effective in an ad as saying "Genuine AM General castings". He said he'd change it.

They do not sell complete longblocks or drop-in engines with aftermarket heads, but they do sell aftermarket heads separately. I asked that they indicate "aftermarket" on the ad pages for the aftermarket heads. He said he would.

They do not sell aftermarket cylinder blocks for the 6.5. Trent said he looked at the imported blocks, and found them to be inferior pieces.

Trent said the first batch of imported 6.5 heads they acquired appeared to be quality units, and have had no customer complaints. The valve guides, for example, were steel inserts, instead of machined cast. The latest batch of imported heads they bought did not have the steel valve guide inserts and were rougher looking. They are in the process of evaluating them..... I also mentioned that a member here bought a set of aftermarket heads, and removed one of the precups, which had metal debris under the cup and that the cup was magnetic where the OEM cups are not magnetic. Trent thought that was interesting, and said he'd check that out as well. Trent said they won't sell problem parts.

Jim

[Jim Faire]

Seems that DSG isn't the only ones with a claim to AMG blocks...

Reviva (and all the companies they supply to), 65DieselDirect, and RJPerformance also claim to be using genuine AMGeneral blocks.

So maybe it's not just Kennedy, GM, and Penninsular any more... this makes it a lot harder to tell what you're getting. (And more important to look, because there is several thousand dollars of price differential between those offerings.)

Amazing that hardly anybody's website says AMG blocks, but when you email them all, you get great descriptions and service.

And I thought AMG was pretty exclusive. I am so naive.

[ThePIGSmith]

Here is a posting about a 4.0L Jeep Cylinder modified for use on 258 block.
This modification was performed by Clearwater Cylinder Heads.
The poster reported the work performed was not done correctly.
"went to install the stainless valves only to discover that the guides were installed at all different heights and two were in upside down"

http://www.bulltear.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8075

So, from the reports here on The Diesel Page about their 6.5 Heads and now this report, you can come to you own conclusions about the quality of work and products by Clearwater Cylinder Heads.
I have no dealings with them, so I will not comment, other than passing along information.

[More Power]

Just received a phone call from a member from Vernal, Utah who bought a new set of Chinese 6.5 heads from a local auto parts store. He had put a great deal of time, money and effort into his engine, beginning from the bottom up. One of the heads has a porosity leak from a water jacket into the cyl. It hydro-locked his newly rebuilt engine. He's not a happy camper.

Jim

[Jim Faire]

I just spoke to Trent Millard at DSG about 6.5 cylinder blocks, cylinder heads and their own web site advertising. I found it most enlightening.

Trent said that their Titan 6.5L engines are new units built with the latest AM General castings - both heads and blocks. I mentioned that saying "Hummer -Style" would not be as effective in an ad as saying "Genuine AM General castings". He said he'd change it.

They do not sell complete longblocks or drop-in engines with aftermarket heads, but they do sell aftermarket heads separately. I asked that they indicate "aftermarket" on the ad pages for the aftermarket heads. He said he would.

Jim

Not to be nit-picky, but neither of the two things Trent assured you would be done have happened.

The DSG website still lists brand-new "Hummer-Style" blocks. It also lists heads without the 'aftermarket' label.

Aside from the fact that Trent didn't follow-through on the assurances, they also list "the lowest price in North America on Bare heads". Not so... Ideal Cylinder head appears to have bare 6.5 TD heads for $218 with a 2-yr replacement warranty.

http://www.idealcylinderhead.com/gm-...nder-head.html

Now, that's only $23 less than DSG, but... since the topic is truth in advertising, I felt obliged to point that out.

I'm still busy eating my crow, by the way; it didn't go down all that well last time. Maybe Trent would like to split it with me.