Smoke from oil fill, losing coolant...

[DennisG01]

It's dripping just inboard of the starboard side valve cover and landing on the valley in the engine - most of it probably was burning off as I drove. I'm not counting my chickens, yet, but I'm sure as heck hoping this is the problem. I'll wait on buying the plug adapter. Once I get the oil analysis back - if all is good (at least I know coolant isn't going into the oil) then I'll drive the truck and see if the leak has stopped.

[Robyn]

Drizzles down the valley drain hole and out the hole in the flywheel cover.

A DRIP DRIP DRIP can add up real quick.

Lets hope that the little hose leak was all it was.

[DennisG01]

Hmmm. Didn't know there was a weep hole. I'll have to check that out - the coolant was filling up that back area (maybe it's plugged up) and then overflowing and dripping down the back side of the block. I think that's why I saw coolant showing in the crack between the block and port side head (aft end). Although, without the engine running (and it off) yesterday, it was dripping down many spots!

[DennisG01]

Got the oil analysis back. Not good. Tested positive for AF and water. Also the iron content was high. I checked some older samples I had done and they were also high for iron.

I couldn't seem to attach the PDF as the file must be too big for the forum. But the things/numbers the lab referenced to indicate coolant is present are sodium (Na) and potassium (K). Those numbers, in ppm, were 1408 and 263. I called the lab and they said they would normally expect those numbers to be around 10 or less.

The oil SAE grade tested at 50wt -- I use Rotella 15-40. So it seems that would indicate that the oil is thickening.

Unfortunately, this probably helps explain the wispy smoke I saw?

So the big question is, how do I figure out where it's getting in? Maybe it's best if I let a shop check it out? Can the ingestion point be figured out without tearing the engine apart? I know - probably hard questions to answer, especially via a forum.

Oh... and my other car - just now found a big spot of coolant on the ground underneath it! You've got to be kidding me!!!

[DennisG01]

I'm thinking.... use the special tablets and put fresh oil in it. Monitor coolant level closely and get oil sampling done on a short-mileage basis. Thoughts?

[rustyk]

The oil SAE grade tested at 50wt -- I use Rotella 15-40. So it seems that would indicate that the oil is thickening.

Ethylene glycol (EG) has that effect. Change the oil immediately, run the engine briefly, then park the truck until repairs are made. EG in the oil can create a coal mine-like effect if not suppressed.

[DennisG01]

Could someone explain this or tell me if I'm not thinking correctly...

So, the main goal is to figure out how/where the coolant is getting in. If I use that glow plug adapter tool, that's only going to show if I have a leaking intake or exhaust valve, right? How would that show a coolant leak? Wouldn't that only show an air leak?

And, did removing the #8 plug and turning the engine over eliminate cracks in the cylinder since no coolant came out (the paper towel was very dry)?

Assuming for a minute that there's more to this and I'm not thinking clearly, wouldn't I need to do this procedure at each cylinder?

[DennisG01]

'nother question... in regards to the wispy smoke... could that happen from a plugged CDR valve? It's a lot grimier around the CDR than I remember it ever being.

If antifreeze sat on top of the engine valley (between the valve covers) and the weep hole was clogged so it wouldn't drain very fast... is there any way that the AF sitting there could get into the oil system? I may be grasping for straws here....

[DmaxMaverick]

Are you checking your "wispy smoke" at the dipstick tube? If so, you can't measure by that. The very small hole, compared to the oil filler cap, will make it appear to be much greater than it really is. A little vapor wisping from the oil filler is normal. Unless you actually measure the blow-by with a manometer, you don't really know what you have. If you do, in fact, have water in the crankcase, that wispy smoke could be steam. Judging by the pic in your first post, it's at least possible. Where the water came from is the question.

A plugged/restricted CDR can, and often does, cause an appearance of excessive blow-by. However, it would take a lot more than just a grimy CDR. It would have to be nearly completely blocked, or internally collapsed. The CDR is normally open at idle, and only closes with an increase of intake vacuum at higher RPM's (or is supposed to).

It is possible, however unlikely, water/coolant puddling at the rear of the valley could enter the crankcase through the oil pump drive. It doesn't have a positive seal, and the paper gasket is often left out, anyway.

[DennisG01]

I originally saw the wispy smoke at the dipstick, but then noticed it at the fill, too. I was curious about "it being possibly normal" - I suppose it's the cold weather? But, there's definitely water in the oil, as confirmed by the oil analysis.

Been feeling a little under the weather - as soon as I'm feeling "over the weather", I'll change the oil out and see what's what.

[john8662]

Schoolcraft engine likely is equipped with Head Studs Right?

I'll bet your source of coolant in the oil is from these two additional locations.

1) Leaking Head Stud under valve cover. Coolant weeps into the oil from getting past the head studs (they're in coolant) and into the oil. This can be tested by removing the intake manifold, injector lines and then the valve covers. You'll then use the coolant pressure tester you already have and look for coolant leaks, they'll be easy to find. You may want to wipe most of the oil off each stud before pressure testing to make sure you're able to find the leak.

2) Leaking Outer Main Bolt on the Splayed Main Caps. Adding Splayed main caps to a block adds another possible leak area. Boring into the block to add the outside bolt holes for the splayed mains takes you really close to the water jacket surrounding the cylinders. I don't know how far Schoolcraft's machinist bores for the holes, but you have to be careful and use an appropriate length fastener to not hit the jacket. I'm using my own fasteners on engine I build as my machinist has been able to avoid hitting the water jacket. The first splayed block I had done, the bolts DID hit the jacket and required sealant on the bolts, which can over time fail.

I also agree with Greg above that the smoke you're seeing is very limey steam when the oil temperature gets hot enough to evaporate the water in the coolant from the oil. Hot oil will normally boil off water, which is a normal process that takes care of normal amounts of water in the oil from condensation.

My bet is on your leak is a head stud.

John

[DennisG01]

You're correct, John, Ronnie used head studs. Thanks for the additional "what to check". Been running around getting the other car back up and running. Super cold here, right now, and not sure if I can convince the wife to put the Burb in the garage for a few days. But it sure would be nice to work in some warmth!

[campionc]

Hey Robyn,

I just changed the water pump on mine and had a thought about this. Could it be a problem with the adapter plate behind the pump leaking one into the other?

Chris

[DennisG01]

Hey Robyn,

I just changed the water pump on mine and had a thought about this. Could it be a problem with the adapter plate behind the pump leaking one into the other?

Chris

Chris - interesting thought. Check out this thread, starting at post #31 - does this help explain anything? http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/t...t=39910&page=2

[campionc]

Good Lord, man! Looking at that post, all I can think of is that a MONKEY could have done a better job than that!

And I think Missy was right - looks like somebody just didn't want to get the $5 gasket set!

[Robyn]

WAY too much use of the silicone goop these days.

The only place I use goop only is the VC's.
On the pan I use the felpro gaskets, smear a thin film on the block and pan rails, then add a bit to the sharp corners at the rear main.

I have never had one leak, never.

The VC's are another story.

Clean and straighten the cover rails, wash/wipe with brake clean or equiv, then clean the head rails.

Goop the VC GOOD and stuff the cover/s on and lightly snug (key word is just past finger tight) let the goop cure overnight, then snug the bolts on down some.

They are good to go.

Sparingly is a good choice of words when using the sil goop.

Our 95 Burb has a heater issue as well.
The 454 has the water outlet in the back of the engine, but it could be a similar problem.

Summers coming


Missy

[Robyn]

Chris

There is a possibility on the water pump/timing chain case.

The back plate on the WP is the front cover for the case and if it gets a cavitation erosion hole, it can leak to the crank case.

Not likely though, buttttttttttttttttttttttt.

[DennisG01]

Sorry - lot's of things have been going on - truck has just been sitting and waiting for me.

Considering there was LOT'S of goop used, are the chances that there is a leak there at the water pump pretty slim?

I just pulled the truck into the garage so it'll be nice and warm for me tomorrow morning. Plan on checking to see wherever that valley weep hole is. Also changing the oil. I'll first pull the drivers side plugs and the other easy ones on the passenger's side and repeat that test that Missy had me do on #8. Figure it's easy enough and can't hurt.

[DennisG01]

If forgot to do the glow plug hole test before I dropped the oil out. But while the pan was empty with the oil pan plug still out I decided, just for the heck of it, to pressurize the coolant system again and see if anything comes out the oil pan plug hole.

-- The oil pan had been draining for about 3 hours with the front end of the truck jacked up slightly to help evac all the old oil.

-- I hooked up the pressure tester and pumped it up to about 16psi.

-- Within about 1 minute of pressurizing the system, I started seeing some thin oil drip out of the drain hole (remember, it had already drained for 3 hours). Then, about 15 seconds later it started turning a lighter color and the drips increased. Then a few seconds later it was a thin stream (not just drips) of orange coolant.

I'm thinking "crap", but what do any of you think?

EDIT: If I didn't mention it above, every oil analysis has also mentioned that there was high metal content.

-- Seeing as the coolant pressure is 16PSI, and the coolant was ending up in the oil when the engine was running (which is pumping at least 40PSI), that means the coolant must be making it's way into a lesser (than 16psi) pressure area, right? That's about as much as I can 'guess' though.

[john8662]

Lesser pressure area, crankcase area, the pan is NOT under oil pressure, just the oil passages and bearing journals.

Yep, coolant in the oil. Most likely leaking head stud as mentioned previously.

I'd pull the valve covers and perform the same pressure test looking at each stud for the culprit.